Author Topic: Political Discussion  (Read 11456 times)


  • Guest
Political Discussion
« on: July 29, 2005, 06:32:38 PM »
Hi, how're you all doing.  Just wondering what people were thinking about
the current state of the world and the U.S. in particular.
  The thing that has been on my mind lately is the re-passing of the U.S.A.
PATRIOT Act and how maybe some of it's "sunset" clauses may conflict with our basic constitutional rights as citizens of this country.  Any thoughts on the topic would be appreciated.  I'm not quite sure myself what to think of it yet.
   It would be nice to hear some rantings & ravings or just some good ol' fashioned civilized debate from any and all sides of the political spectrum, about absolutely anything to do with freedom, security, privacy, laws, pollution, taxation, war, etc.
   I believe that these are exciting times that we're living in and to let it
pass by without comment would be saddening.

   Ciao :-)

[October 2005]: Below is a list of hyperlinks to political discussionisms (<Newspeak) as appeared or are appearing on
By doing this am I making Big Brother's job easier? or am I adding fuel to the fire that lights the proverbial as*ses of le Resistance? I took the liberty of putting an asterisk next to the topics that I thought most critical.
-zen (Content Free)

The Links:

From, General Astorian Discussion:
"Harriet Miers withdraws her nomination"
"Oil profits"
"P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act"
"conspiricy theory"
"Harriet Miers' Blog"
"Astoria- immigrants"
"Rev Billy this |Sunday"
"Reality TV"
"Protest in Washington"
"Hurricane Katrina"
"A little political wit from Google"
"The FEMA rap"
"The Daily Show on Katrina"
"mayoral candidate debates tonite 09.07.05"
"Political Discussion Group"
"Controversy surrounding Museums at Ground Zero"
"NYCLU: RNC Protest Report"
"True Majority - Oreos and Military Spending"
"Democracy Triumphs Yet Again In America!!!"
"The Gospel According to Pat Robertson"
"Long Range Acoustic Device"
"Pat Robertson urges assassination of Chavez"
"Equal Time for the Kansas City Schoolboard"
"House Votes To Curb Patriot Act"
"profiling people..a new thread spun from the WTC site thread"
"Billionaires are at it again!!!"
"Why I'm running for City Council in Astoria--Jerry Kann"
"Happy Fourth of July!!!"
"Why aren't liberals more politically active."
"A PS on the Whistleblowers"
"The Whistle Blowers Strike Back!"
"Have you been paying attention to what's going on in DC?"
"Olympics 2012"
"Who's Afraid of Intelligent Design?"
"Cast the Devil out of the developers!!!"
"CongressWoman & Heroine"
"political thing from MoveOn"
"The War Prayer by Mark Twain"
"Come Exorcise Starbucks!"
"An easy way to protest bush's inauguration"
"Tsunami Relief Information"
"Republican Santa Claus?"
"It's Stalin's Birthday (and, Happy Winter Solstice)"
"Recycled Christmas"
"Native astorians, here ye!"
"Attn: Social Worker Loan Forgiveness Program"
"Election Map"
*"Election audit murmurs brewing"
*"the morning after..."
"No Friends on the Right?"
"Terrifying Greetings..."
"Bush Cares About You!"
"An EASY way to volunteer for KERRY/EDWARDS"
"Astorians For Peace"
"Reminder -- register to vote by Friday Oct. 8th"
"John Kerry"

From, Community Calendar:

From, Activity Partners & Community Groups:
"New activist group"
"Discuss World Press?"
"Drinking Liberally"

From, Issues & Writing: Politics, Spirituality, Debate, Rants, Manifestos, Essays
"Power versus Authority"
"New documentary features Bush speech writer"
"another pressing philosophical question"
"Donations for Katrina: email from an actual relief worker"
"The World Can't Wait"
"World Can't Wait -- Flyer & website"
"The World Can't Wait -- FAQ"
"The "myth" of Iraq's foreign fighters"
"Call the Capital Oct. 17 & 18-- Set's Congress's Priorit" Call the Capital Oct. 17 & 18-- Set's Congress's Priorit
"Brilliant Bush parodies"
"I Trust My Government..."
"$5/gallon for 5 years"
"Informal Poll conducted by MinTru"
"Armenian Genocide"
"Support the War in Iraq, Building Democracies..."
"MTA to BAN all photography in subways"
"Two important wins for Free Software and open standards"
"I want to join the military, but what are my rights?"
"The government belongs to you"

[Stay tuned...]


  • Guest
cart before the horse
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2005, 11:55:03 PM »
Actually, the measure has only passed with portions of the original act, so it's hard to say.  I'm willing to bet most people who think about it aren't behind it.  People who are easily scared and don't think of the consequences of what the actual details of the Patriot Act are (or even know what they are) will probably be rooting for it to pass.


  • Guest
In Memory of Jean Charles de Menezes (1978 – 22 July 2005)
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2005, 12:55:01 PM »
Thank you, Telesphoros for replying.
I am so glad that there are people who are willing to talk/communicate about these things.

"Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism (USA PATRIOT ACT) Act of 2001"

  At first glance a lot of the provisions (the original 2001 Act) seem to make sense and they even go so far as to say something to the effect that congress will be "condemning discrimination against Arab and Muslim Americans".  Hey, I'm all for obstructing terrorism.  Who isn't?

  I downloaded the 2001 version:

and I must say that it's pretty daunting as far as size goes (132 pages long).  I am not so clear about which parts were retained either "permanently" or not up for revoting until another 10 years.

Oh, O.K.,
I just googled it...

Here are two links, the latter of which goes into more detail about the 16 provisions that were set to expire, (14 of which did not).  They include such
things as "sneek and peek" searches, roving wiretaps, gaining personal information from libraries, bookstores and ISPs (which are prohibited from revealing that they even provided any information about their customers).  The article also lists some of the abuses of the act where people that had no links to terrorism were subject to surveillance and intimidation.
I also see that there is a lot of opposition to the law by both Republicans and Democrats.  I find it strange that the first Act was signed by Bush immediately after the capture of Sadam Hussein who is generally believed now not to have had any links with September 11th or Al Queda.



Here is another article from the L.A. Daily News that states that, "The Senate voted unanimously Friday to make permanent virtually all the main provisions of the law known as the USA Patriot Act..." and also, "The House passed a bill of its own last week that would also extend the law's surveillance and law enforcement powers...".  However, there is also talk of Republican leaders agreeing to install civil-rights safeguards.,1413,200~20954~2988186,00.html


I must confess that I'm feeling a little bit skeptical about the whole deal especially after being assured by the authorities in the aftermath of 9/11 that Americans would not be expected to give up their basic freedoms or alter their traditional values in order to feel a little "safer".

Let's keep this dialogue going,


  • Guest
C.F.A.B.F - Clingons for a Better Federation
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2005, 12:42:34 PM »
I know it's the weekend....buuuuuutt...
Anyone?  Anything?  MRIDude, you still there?  We played chess at one time, and I know you have something to contribute :-)
   Please, please, I'm lonely and I'm scared and I don't feel like discussing
HL2  :-)))))) , *drool_* right now.

Lot's of discussions can be held under this one topic so doesn't start to look like some crazy leftist anti-corporate media outlet. Right-wingers welcome, "I" don't bite. :-Z .... ;-) willing to listen....((c

  Global warming?  Bombings in London? Tax reform? Economics, e.g. the trending of the GBP? RFID technology? Bush? Blair? Digital Millenium Act? RIAA? MPAA? FCC? RNC? DNC? MCI lawsuit? Privacy? Abortion? War in Iraq? Iran? Homeland Security? Prison Systems? Corporations, for example Halliburton, Borden Milk, Kraft,  ConEdison? Covance? McDonald's (Supersize Me!)?, NGOs...e.g. Greenpeace?, United Nations?
Noise/Light Pollution?

  Anyone want to suggest any good sources/links for news?, for example, FOX, CNN, NWI, BBC, Indymedia, WBAI?  Internet only broadcasts, (Slashdot?)

  I am waiting for meaningful discussion.
  I am glued to my LCD *:-0#
  Don't be afraid to speak, America is still free.  I'm drunk.
  Beam me up Scottie!

Addendum:  If anyone has played the fabulous game Half Life 2 and wants to discuss the story line, I do believe that a discussion of this nature could fit under this Topic.

  Cheers Astoira, Hiccup*

DISCLAIMER:  If you are ree-ading... Ahhhh, Nevermind.

Offline merm

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Political Discussion
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2005, 06:57:41 PM »
I'm wondering what they mean by "virtually all provisions" were adapted and renewed. Were there ANY that weren't renewed?


  • Guest
We have always been at war with Eastasia....-Orwell
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2005, 08:40:39 PM »
Yes, the whole act was renewed, with the exception of 2 out of 16 "sunset" clauses which were set to expire this year providing that the "Crisis" was over.  It will be another "10" years before these provisions will come up for revision or dismissal.
  However, many parts of the act were up for revision even though their institution became "permanent".

  For example: the law granting the Justice department to investigate library records and bookstore purchases of individuals without a warrant must now first be granted permission (in writing) by the director of the F.B.I.

  These surveillance initiatives are really the tip of the iceberg however.  What seems to me to be even more frightening is that under this act it will (has) become perfectly legal to detain ANY alien or someone of less than citizen status for indefinite periods of time while totally circumventing the right to a formal trial or even the right to even be formally charged with a crime; IOW, due process.

  Many, at this moment, are languishing in prison without being able to communicate with family or even an attorney for extended periods of time.
What is even more disturbing is that many of these so-called "threats" have been released (after serving several years) without ever have been charged and not so much as an apology.  In addition to this, many (if not all) have been tortured.

  But, I digress.  These so-called "records of abuse" are wholeheartedly denied by the proponents of this law just as global warming as a now established scientific Fact has until this year also been denied by this administration.  Once, a long long time ago, the Earth was also Flat.

  Anyone disagree?  I'm really not 100% sure I have all my facts straight.
But my overall impression is that the repassing of this Law forebodes something very ominous for us all in the near future.  Wiretapping someone's phone in the not so distant past was once considered a gross violation... now it seems to be taken for granted as standard operation procedure.


  • Guest
Political Discussion
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2005, 08:47:52 PM »
I may be going out on a limb here but maybe in Newspeak
"Virtually all" = "All but a couple" ;-)


  • Guest
another thought
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2005, 09:19:38 PM »
Let's not forget that the House and Senate versions have to be reconciled before anything can be sent to the president for approval.  We won't know what the final version will be until congress is back in session from their long break.  I wish I had that much vacation...


  • Guest
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2005, 11:45:45 AM »
Thank you for the clarification, Telesphoros.  I found the links within the article that you mentioned very helpful, especially where it mentions the 16 sections that were set to expire.

  I really hope that the citizens of our community will get together and protest this IMHO Draconian Law.  Or is peaceful civil disobedience outlawed yet?

  In Peace, Justice,



  • Guest
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2005, 03:58:35 PM »
Quote from: Zeno
Thank you for the clarification, Telesphoros.  I found the links within the article that you mentioned very helpful, especially where it mentions the 16 sections that were set to expire.

  I really hope that the citizens of our community will get together and protest this IMHO Draconian Law.  Or is peaceful civil disobedience outlawed yet?

  In Peace, Justice,


*joke alert*
No, that right is set for the 17th unpublished double secret provision of the revised Patriot Act where all civil liberties are thrown out and we each get to host a soldier in our homes to prove that we aren't terrorists.

Now back to regularly scheduled reality....


  • Guest
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2005, 04:23:34 PM »

   Isn't that the provision that's set to be written in invisible ink?



  • Guest
George Carlin on the constitution
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2005, 06:59:34 PM »
They keep talking about drafting a Constitution for Iraq. Why don't we
just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys,
it's worked for over 200 years and we're not using it anymore.


  • Guest
S**t, P**s, F**k, C**t, C********r, M****r*****r and T**s
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2005, 10:11:16 PM »
I can think of where Congress is using the Constitution...[potty humor]

   Just a matter of time before those 7 taboo words are not allowed on the internet as well.  Why look, I've even censored myself!  And I believe that it's a council of 12 (FCC) that is censoring the rest of the nation.  Twelve.
  Who will "govern" the global intarweb?

  This link is pretty interesting, some Penn & Teller info on PATRIOT Act, and thankfully they think it's bulls**t.

"the more that i see, the less i believe
the barbed wire fences have replaced all the trees..."
-Fun Boy Three

sweet dreams Astoria,


  • Guest
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2005, 10:49:47 PM »
Ok, I have no idea what I can add.  I'll critique the last link....

It was amusing, but it was really only a readers digest look at the patriot act.  It's worth taking the time to watch for entertainment value but only marginally useful in informing on the topic.

The use of the concept of what a common person would do was hopefully something the general public will be able to relate to.  The idea of trying to stop "the bad guys" is indeed admirable, but the problem as in all aspects of life crops up in the execution and serious consideration needs to be given to cost/benefit.  Every goverment agent you give these sweeping powers (i.e., sneak and peak, etc.) will use them only as well as his character will allow.  Someone is bound to do something bad and to what end?  In the hope that we MIGHT catch a bad guy?  Not worth it to me.  'Nuff said.  Someone else give some insight.


  • Guest
Need more Input
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2005, 11:22:38 PM »
Amen, Telesphoros.

I think we're already in agreement, and BTW there already have been abuses.  Many, in fact.

It is my hope that at this, IMHO "crucial" hour that there will be more feedback on this burning topic.  Even an opinion differing from those of the people who have already posted (all 3!) will be most welcome.  I promise not to bite.


I will keep bulletin board silence for three (3) days, and if there is no response to the topic then I guess I'll just keep spouting some more conspiracy-leftist liberal political b***sh** until I get it out of my system or until a M.I.B. knocks on my door in the middle of the night and (hopefully politely) asks me to stop.

P.S.:  Even though the topic until now has been the PATRIOT Act there are also many more "burning" issues that can use some dialogue if anyone is so inclined.
I, personally cannot sleep at night until I feel as if I've made some kind of sense of or at least communicated with another human being my bewilderment at the world around us.


  • Guest
Sometimes silence too can be golden.
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2005, 07:57:37 AM »
Well, I had hoped there would have been more discussion here in humble, yet amazingly cosmopolitan Astoria, concerning not only the imminent Eclipse of human rights (now soon to be codified by law with utmost finality) but what we as individuals can do to change it.  From the short time that I've been here (a little over a year) I have met many a diverse and stimulating individual, all seemingly ready to speak up, stand out and do what they really believe to be right.  I have no illusions about the general awareness of my brethren.  I really believe that 90% of the people I meet in the street really knows what is "going on" and are yearning for something better.

So why the silence?

Is it guilt? Don't be.  No one is to blame.
Is it apathy?  I don' think so, after observing first hand the industry of my fellow Astorians, I know it cannot be apathy.
Is it callousness?  It cannot be.  Everyone I have met here has shown some sign of humanity and sensitivity to one another's pain or joy.

So why the silence?

It must be fear. In fact, I know it is. How do I know? I feel it in my bones. I know it pervades our lives.  I know it because every time I watch the news or even look at the weather section in the newspaper I can see very clearly and very concretely painted in yellow or orange color codes the level of my fear.  When policy in England is to shoot first (maybe seven times in the head) and ask questions later and to examine our own country and see the similarities that are oh so close, to know that when the cops and private security fear the terrorists, when private citizens fear the cops and the terrorists, when our own President cowers in fear of his own constituents surrounded by a contingent of bodyguards rivaling the ancient Julian emperors of Rome, and to see every nation on earth cower in fear of Him as if He were the undisputed Master of the Universe,  When torture has become mainstream serial television, when due process has become a joke and the constitution and the bill of rights are nothing more than "quaint" dreams of an ancient past, when ethnic cleansing happens almost unnoticed and words like genocide provoke no emotional response, when slavery is demoted to a buzzword of the disenfranchised and has no real bearing on how we live today, when War becomes something to be desired and enthusiastically participated in by children who only want to make us proud,
I know that time has come to fear.

I envision a world where there is no killing, no slavery, no poverty, no slandering, no snitching, no disease, no waste... only creativity, love and the pursuit of wisdom, empathy and understanding, where diplomacy and not brute force is considered the best way (ethically and economically) to solve our differences. A world where the freedom to speak is reasserted each and every day by excercising that "inalienable" right, without regard to the consequences, without regard to what people may think of us or want to do to us, without regard to the tyrant of the hour or the corporate superstructure that rewards or punishes us, and with knowledge of the absurdity of how they may condemn us for being who we cannot help but be; that is, who we are, in this, our Precious land of freedom and democracy, or Republic, if you will.

However, I am not so blinded by my own dreams or ideals that I am willing to step upon the dragon.  I am not so unrealistic as to believe that one individual shouting to a nation of sheep will make him or her any more safe or less lonely.  With all conscience, I too must bow down to all powerful fear.  Self-preservation inevitably wins out over ideals and precocious dreams of how the world should be.
So, my fellow Astorians, as one individual to another, as one American to another (I do consider myself a patriot) I am making an active decision to only talk about "safe" things from now on, thereby relegating this cold, lifeless Topic to the dead-letter box to which it so obviously belongs.
And in so doing, I'll let a little piece of me die while saving my own proverbial neck from the scrutiny of Big Brother and soon to be by extension, you're own crushing disapproval.

Peace and Love be with you all,


Offline jayme

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Political Discussion
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2005, 08:48:42 AM »

Maybe we just need to start a little smaller.

I'm not uninterested in political discussion, oblivious to the what's really going on, ready to roll over and play dead for the Patriot Act, or apathetic.  What I am more than anything else is tired.  I'm tired of discussing only to agree and in agreeing reach the point of well.... what do we do now?  I'm tired of politics and news and the endless stream of entirely similar stories, almost indistinguishable from one another.  

So give me something refreshing and simple.  Give me a source, a primer topic, a little gentle on the brain and I'll ease into this politics thing.

But please don't start too big or too important.  I've got to work up to that.

Or maybe just give me a new news source.  Tell me to read BBC News, listen to some good NPR, catch up on the Daily Show -- point me in the direction of something that doesn't tire me out.

Don't get me wrong here -- I'm not saying YOU are the source of tiredness.  I'm just looking for a little jolt, something with a little caffeine to get me going again.  Wake me up before you hit me with the heavy stuff.

These are pigs.
See francis's friends for kitties.


  • Guest
a little something to do
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2005, 10:37:59 AM »

Here is a small place to start.  If you think these searches are a useless act that is starting us down a slippery slope of rights infringement, use the preformatted e-mail to send a message to our representatives.


  • Guest
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2005, 01:00:04 PM »
I didn't mean to be so harsh or so pompous, but you have to admit, that long and tiresome post did elicit a response ;-)

The tiredness thing I can understand.  With all that has happened in the last few years, New Yorkers have been through a lot. Unfortunately, the machinery of oppression never rests. I feel that our morale is being worn down intentionally, just like our shock over the attacks on September 11, has been used to manipulate us successfully. To let our country go without even a word of protest is to justify the use of these tactics of intimidation and fear which will only pave the way to more abuse. We don't have to be a part of this sick process.

This link serves as a great source for news concerning the Act as well as a portal to other resources, one that I think we should pay attention to each and every day our freedom is threatened.  Once that law is signed by Mr. Bush there may be no going back.  Right now it's the subway, tommorow it will be our homes. Please check out the links that they provide:


"they that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty or safety" ---Benjamin Franklin


  • Guest
don't let that torch go out!
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2005, 01:20:11 PM »
hi zeno

hang in there...

keep posting.

just because there hasn't been a flood of responses doesn't mean we aren't listening, and-or enjoying your posts...

we may simply have other main interests, or be shy, or waiting a little to get to know you before we engage in potentially convroversial debate. (not that controversy isn't desirable- it does take a certain commitment - time, and otherwise, that we may need a little more familiarity to justify.)

personally - i haven't been put off by anything you have said, or any questions you have raised.

although the meaning of the words 'freedom' and 'democracy' seem to be threatened by their recent mis-appropriation as political band-aids for ill-conceived publicly funded profiteering...

i still think some open discussion about related topics might, at least, help some of us feel less isolated in our concerns...



  • Guest
Feeling less isolated now.
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2005, 01:45:07 PM »
@ frozenfroot

Your kind words of encouragement mean the world to me. I will continue.


Offline merm

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Intelligent Design
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2005, 02:24:25 PM »
I saw something on CSPAN this morning that I found interestingly disturbing:

They had the Presdient of some "Liberty Association" (the "conservative") and put him against the president of some "Association for separation of church and state" or something like that (the "liberal")

Then they launched into the debate over Intelligent Design.

This whole debate started long ago (some would say thousands of years ago with Cicero's "Watchmaker analogy." (Which basically says that if one were walking along the beach and came upon a fully-functional pocket watch lying in the sand, think that it just came about entirely by chance [and thus even natural selection it is argued])

Ok, so back to the debate: On the right you had a "conservative Christian" who was arguing for intelligent design from the perspective that "God" created the world. And on the left you had this guy that was over and over saying that the "theory" of Intelligent Design isn't scientific, and that it was religion.

What struck me was this:

While the "liberal" was talking he was bringing up points (against ID) such as:
- We don't have time to try and figure out if ID is right, there are too many other important issues to be discovered in science right now.
- What will this "open the door" for in the future? Religion being taught in schools?!
- ID isn't scientific.

The conservative kept playing right into all his traps, even expressing his own "beliefs" about what an intelligent designer might be ("God") and saying that ID should be taught in schools because lots of people believe that way in the U.S. Then, later he actually defended Jerry Falwell as being non-political and "good."

I was about to pull my hair out.

I don't feel threatened by Intelligent Design; because if you read about it you will see that intelligent design has absolutely nothing to do with "God." Intelligent design is NOT a "new" argument, this is stuff that has been around for a very long time, and the principals that it is based upon are completely valid within the scientific community in most cases.

Take for instance in archeology, when you come across a stone that is oddly shaped. Scientists use well accepted scientific methods to determine if the rock was naturally "carved" that way, or if an external force (intentional or non-intentional) caused the rock to be carved that way. When it comes to things like this, the pyramids, stonehenge etc, it's relatively easy for us to determine these things probably did not happen "naturally", but that some external cause is responsible (humans in this case.) Intelligent Design theory simply applies well settled scientific method in biology, specifically molecular biology, and comes to the conclusion that Darwinian natural selection does not adequately describe the specified complexity exibihited at this level. ID goes on to say that the specified complexity we observe is best and most simply described by some external cause (intentional or non-intentional.)

Ok here is what is upsetting to me. First, ID does not, nor has it ever as I understand it, tried to prove there is a "God." It only evaluates the data, and applies a non-Darwinian method, and comes to a different answer. Christians are going crazy trying to make the irrational and illogical leap that this means "God" exists. NO IT DOESN'T. Even if ID is "correct" the external cause could have been intentional, or NON-intentional. This is just pure manipulation, and I don't stand for it.

But on the other side you have these "liberals" who are doing the SAME thing. They are saying that ID is "religion" and "all about God." It's NOT about God, you are LEGITIMIZING THE CONSERVATIVES POSITION WHEN YOU SAY THAT! It is NOT about God. For all we know the "intelligent designer" could have been a UFO traveling by and the drivers needed to take a load off and shat on earth before speeding away to another dimmension. ID does NOT disagree with "evolution" entirely per-se, it just disagrees with Darwinian evolution as it relates to the "origin" of species, saying that natural selection cannot account for the specified complexity at the cellular level. Darwinian approaches break down at this level (aparently.) They are just saying that there was an external cause that cannot, and is not currently explained by evolution.

Anyway. I wanted to call in and just tell that liberal guy that he's really a conservative after hearing him say "we don't have time for this" and "what will this open the door to." This is the same thing conservatives say. "We don't have time for people to decide to be a democracy, we need to force it." And "oh my, can you imagine what will happen if we allow gays to marry, they'll want to marry animals next." This is pure fear-mongering and manipulation and I'm tired of it from both "sides."

I'm against Christians trying to push ID as an agenda into public schools to try and get creation taught. But I'm EQUALLY against scientists who write off the entire ID theory as "religion" that's pure dogma on BOTH their parts. I don't "believe" in evolution, and I neither do I think Intelligent Design solves the problem, but that doesn't mean I'm ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater on both of them. Is there no such thing as non-partisan discussion anymore? Everything seems to be either the "Christians" are hjacking the nation, or the "Liberals" are hijacking our morals. I'm wondering if there's anyone else who isn't afraid to just say "I don't know - but let's talk about it." It's like we're afraid if we don't pretend to have all the answers for our kids in school, or in our own lives that we're somehow weak or something. I don't know - now I'm just rambling.

Anyone else thought about this?


  • Guest
Evolutionisms in Creationisms.
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2005, 03:15:10 PM »
A most excellent post merm.

There are many theories of evolution just as there are many theories of creationsism, for example:

A says: Jehovah created this.

B says: No, Baal created that.

C says: You're both wrong, a dual entity Ahuramazda/Ahrimanes in constant flux creates and destroys both of them.


A states: Survival through competition.

B states: No, survival of species through symbiosis.

C states: No, recombinant genetic material is totally random.

ad infinitum...

What I think that this so-called "debate" and many debates boil down to is this...

There are two functions of every human brain, i.e.

The Thinker,
The Prover.

It is the Thinker's job to think up ideas no matter how irrational, rational or outlandish, in order to better understand the chaos of sense impressions which we can for the moment call "reality".
It is the Prover's job to find evidence in support of and to either manipulate or eliminate evidence that is contrary to what the thinker thinks.

Add to this the emotional component of intellectual "territory" and how passionately world paradigms are defended and/or promulgated, then we can see two separate schools of "thinkers" using the same datum as Proof positive that conforms to one another's agenda of what is and what should be "correct", no matter how diverse or diametrically opposed they be.
If one side gains the upper hand in the assimilation of an idea then that idea is most summarily (and easily) rejected by the opponent.

The possibilty that the datum may not conform to either paradigm or may support a third or fourth paradigm or even by it's nature not lend itself to conformity to ANY paradigm (as yet thought up of) holds no interest for the battling entities in question.

I have to think about this topic deeper.  It is a problem that has been around for quite a long while, but many problems do have a synthesising solution, in my,  maybe overoptimistic belief.


P.S.: Add to this quagmire that "datums" for all intents and purposes are effectively (to us at any rate, at this moment in temporal flux) infinite in number, to prove anything or to graduate any hypothesis/theory into absolute and all encompassing Law, is imho, a futile excercise at best.

"Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt
That’s far too fleet..."

----Peart, Lee & Lifeson


  • Guest
natural science
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2005, 05:15:41 PM »
I propose the problem exists in the method of delivery.  It is the medium and format which define how the problem is presented and debated.  In the mentioned format, there is a limited time frame for two sides to present their ideas much like a debate that has set rules.

There is no real intent to explore issues as much as there is an interest in entertaining an audience in the most sensational way possible.  Tune out I say!  There must be better ways to exchange ideas and explore concepts.

To wit.  Why couldn't God just be the "watchmaker" who wound it all up and let it go based on any given set of rules?  Perhaps he even threw in some interesting scientific roadblocks just to trip up the unfaithful.


  • Guest
Manipulated Media
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2005, 10:08:59 PM »
It could be said that those who control the means of production also set the parameters by which the products themselves are presented . Now I'm sounding like some kind of communist, "Grrrrrr" :-)

In the present state of corporate controlled media, ratings and/or agendas are king.  But C-Span? I empathize with merm's frustration.  Many a night I remember falling asleep to C-Span basking in the comfortable knowledge that what I was getting subliminally injected into the subcortical arcitecture of my brain was the filming and sounds of an event being portrayed without comment for a good majority of the time. A way to circumvent this "objectivity" is to change the fora themselves.  Maybe, ever so subtlely at first....


WHAMO! Polarized "Debate"


ENTERattainment!!! = $Money.

No station is immune, no forum uncompromisable, no human being unbreakable. Apply this methodology to a political debate like ah, let's say for example, a Presidential debate, and the results can be something quite frightening.

And that is why we have to "tune out" as Telesphoros so succinctly stated, defy the label of "ideal consumer" that has been thrust upon us and either find or make our own Alternative Media, and disassociate ourselves from this sick system. Not that I advise ignoring it altogether, just looking (or not) at it from another perspective. I still watch FOX.

NWI (News World International) coverage in America,
Requiescat In Pace.

zeno :cry:

-Can an omnipotent god create a stone that even He could not lift?


  • Guest
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2005, 05:45:37 PM »
C0ntent-Free Management System IO

Offline enigmacat

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Political Discussion
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2005, 11:45:06 PM »
i have been silent because i have been in a very different part of the united states without internet access for several days.

and i am not going to join the discussion right now because my computer screen isn't allowing me to read the posts all the way through without scrolling back and forth horizontally!
except to say:
i think what we have here is a perfect plot:  screw the people and bury it in tiny print and twisted language in a few hundred pages of contract and hand them the pen and say "of course it's a democracy!  aren't you proud of your freedoms?"  

i'm in a cynical mood tonight.  i could use some tea. or beer.  hmm, beer.


  • Guest
To war or not to war...
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2005, 02:32:41 AM »
...that is the question.

It first dawned on me last night when I was allegedly getting intoxicated with some friends, that there are in fact some people that do indeed support the war in Iraq.
On further investigation and questioning I was led to believe that the solution for all our global nightmares and potential (future) terrorist actions was really in fact quite simple.
And when I disagreed his girlfriend chimed in "It's about making the world safer for you and for me".  She seemed quite optimistic judging by her reassuring smile and enthusiasm.

Me: What do you propose to do about the war in Iraq?
Should the troops stay there or should we bring them back home in case
something should happen with North Korea, or Iran?

Other: You really want to know?

Me: Yes, I'm curious.

Other: Something along the lines of Hiroshima.

Me: You mean dropping the atom bomb on Iraq?

Other: Yes, put an end to it for once and for all.

Me: Yea,....uh, that's well and good, but don't you think that by dropping an atom bomb on a country no matter how deserving that they may be that that solution will have repurcussions for us as well... as in nuclear fallout? spreading to the U.S. and the rest of the world..."

This conversation continued, and I must admit that at every point I was counterpointed, all the while being reassured that I was a "good guy". In fact, if I hadn't of been so brave and forthcoming I do believe that I would of been intimidated by this guy.
He was big.
He was noble.
A firefighter by trade.
And he supported Bush.

Well, I'm quite the non-partisan liberal.
And I couldn't argue with a firefighter, especially one who had lost so many friends and dear family members in the "tragedy" of 9/11, which he didn't.  But I did notice one small thing, however.

He didn't seem to care that Bin Ladin and most of the hijackers were
He didn't seem to care that Iraq had no WMDs.  As far as he and his girlfriend were concerned they (Iraq) supported the attacks because they were Muslim and didn't like America anyway:. therefore they were responsible, and deserving of extermination.  Yes..."EXTERMINATION."
He never heard of Carlyle Group or Haliburton.
Apparently never heard of Iran Contra or Ollie North,
And I wasn't about to go into my Lee Harvey Oswald rant,
Well,... that would make make look just plain stupid.

He thought that if Iran, North Korea and the People's Republic of China (all having or soon to have nuclear capability) were to rise up and declare war on the U.S., all together, and in tandem, that "We'd be able to take care of them too. We have plenty of people for that." endquote.

Well, I went home a little more (alledgedly) drunk than usual, feeling a little less "safe" and frankly not giving a damn, a little more alienated, a little more displaced, and quite frankly, a little more depressed than usual.

Hopefully, I'll wake up tomorrow having forgot that this enlightened conversation ever took place.



  • Guest
RE: What is happening as of this moment as we read and speak
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2005, 02:41:57 AM »
@ enigmacat.

I'm so glad that you decided to contribute to this little discussion.
I don't think you're being cynical by understanding the standard operating procedures in proper business practices of reading between the lines and the ever so small ubiquitous print. Well, that's just being realistic, not cynical at all.

Beer sounds good, but tea can be a little better for you if you have the heart for it <chagrin>

God knows, now I don't :cry:
& as of this moment quite drunk.  :cry:

May we meet amidst better times than these,


  • Guest
Stop the Killing ----A sign in front of Stockwell Station
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2005, 12:05:00 PM »
I got this off of


Brazilian Man Did not Run, Was not Wearing a Heavy Coat

A while back I posted on the tragedy of the Brazilian man gunned down by British authorities. I asked what if this was your father, brother, son? Someone posted a comment and said my son would never run from the police. Well he didn't. The truth is coming out. "Jean Charles de Menesez "wasn't wearing a heavy jacket. He used his card to get into the station. He didn't vault the barrier. And now police say there are no CCTV pictures to reveal the truth".

So what happened?

Link via Metafilter


PATRIOT Act Countdown: So many days `til congress reconvenes in September...Exact ETA...unknown...processing request.......error...invalid user.....Please log in


"As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness." Justice William O. Douglas


  • Guest
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2005, 03:15:39 AM »
I got to say that even though this small discussion group hasn't got much in the way of response, I am overjoyed at the number of views it has received; 420 + and counting. :-) And all in the space of a few weeks, so now I Know I'm not speaking into the wind. :-)
Sometimes with the lack of observable evidence my imagination gets away with me...  and for that, I apologize. :-i

Maybe the subject matter was too broad, rather than focussing on specifics.
In my overzealousness I had imagined a forum within a forum, neglecting the fact that there were already many posts besides (until I had actually read them through).

When Americans get together we can really accomplish wonders.  It's just too bad that our duly elected officials sometimes think otherwise.  Folly is easy to forgive in a child.

It's reflections such as these that keep me personally optimistic,
So good night and sweet dreams my gentle Astorians,
May we all wake tomorrow, into a better day, ;-)
The future is ours.



  • Guest
Political Discussion
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2005, 04:39:33 PM »

I think what you are trying to do is a good thing, and it should be continued.  As far as the amount of responses goes, I would attribute that to the huge scope of the thread, as well as a small bit of 'preaching to the choir' syndrome.  Most of the people on this list seem bent pretty heavily to the left ... or at least, most of us here agree that the war is bad, Bush is a puppet, Bush's cronies and Lockheed Martin are running the country, etc, etc.

Yet there are so many things to discuss in the realm of world and local affairs, that it would be wrong to say "Well, we're all on the same side, so there's no need to discuss it anymore".  

I would suggest a new top level category for the board, "Local and World Affairs".

This would give us a place to, for example, rant about a particular article in the times, converse with council member Vallone, or have an in depth discussion on the ethics of cloning your pet.  Most of these posts end up in the "General Astoria Discussion" category, and that category is simply too broad.

My two cents.


Offline enigmacat

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Political Discussion
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2005, 05:25:14 PM »
you know, zeno (and other interested parties), it might be nice to have a weekly discussion - focus on something very specific, perhaps even an essay or article to read beforehand (not more than a couple, then you lose people who don't have a lot of time to commit).  

The specific is always more interesting than the general.  

i'd be up for hanging out with a cup of tea and discussing essays by betrand russell, nicholas kristoff, molly ivins, maureen dowd or wendy kaminer.  one at a time, though.


  • Guest
Dropping the names like bombs! :)
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2005, 08:50:23 PM »
i'd be up for hanging out with a cup of tea and discussing essays by betrand russell, nicholas kristoff, molly ivins, maureen dowd or wendy kaminer. one at a time, though.


-m  :D

Offline enigmacat

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Political Discussion
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2005, 09:14:18 PM »
do you really want to know?  i'm finding it difficult to sense your tone ... :-)

bertrand russell is my top pic from the list, of course.  the others i will trade off on.


  • Guest
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2005, 01:01:01 AM »
Thank you guys and gals for the contructive input. I think I'm going to start a topic strictly devoted to the PATRIOT Act and it's related abuses, this for me (at the moment) has become quite obsessive and like any other obsessions has been given priority over other aspects of my life in a rather unhealthy manner.

It wasn't until hindsight that I saw that the scope of this topic was too large for people to digest, lacking focus and diffuse. Unfortunately I'm about to make the same mistake again for another general type of topic, this one having to do with tech.

Cloudnine and Merm started a topic that made me jump with joyful enthusiasm, but the topic was also kind of specific, which is kind of different from my free-association scatterbrain type mentality. ;-)

I also tend to compartmentalize things into rather large categories to avoid getting confused. Something about specialization fills me with dread, I don't know why. It probably has to do with that old Rip Van Winkle folktale I heard as a child. Also something in me sincerely desires to drop the whole political category altogether once all of the problems have been solved, but I guess this is pretty unrealistic not mention naive):-/ .

Anyway cloudnine, I understand the "preaching to the choir syndrome" that you speak of, but my original intention wasn't to convince but to Organize. I was well aware that the majority of New Yorkers agree with me on this particular topic, but I found the lack of protest, demonstrations, communication and solidarity quite frightening. This to me was either due to apathy or fear. Apathy, I can deal with, but the fear component is what really bothers me. If people are afraid to speak and demonstrate publicly their outrage over real or percieved injustices then we might as well live under a dictatorial regime. Trust me, right now I'm quite cynical on that score, but I have found that cynicism doesn't conduce itself well toward contructive change, which is really what we need right now.
Some previous posts of mine were quite negative and preachy, and for that I apologize. It wasn't my intention to try and make people feel bad... in fact that sort of system (of exploitation and shame) is exactly what I'm/We're against.

If the future can only be imagined in bleak terms then why bother at all.
I refuse to believe in a future that is set in stone or that a television series depicting a possible future can decide that future, and when I look around at the present I see alot of good in people,  much more in fact than I was originally lead to believe.
I guess it comes to what we choose to focus on. [Statement coming...]
And there is Choice.

And as far as enigmacat's idea of forming a discussion group, I am all for it. I must confess that alot of the authors she mentions are not known by me, and this is probably what cloudnine was getting at. But, hey, all the more reason for me to get involved and actually try to learn something new.

Again, unfortunately, the specific topic of the PATRIOT Act is taking precedence in my list of priorities, only because of the time factor involved. The window of opportunity to protest it is now rapidly closing, so if the readers of this board feel the same way, I would like to get together
to meet and discuss this issue in person with the proprieter's of Freeze Peache's permission of course.

And to all of you out there who are puzzled by the law (130+ pages) or who know nothing about it's history, don't feel intimidated; I'm no lawyer and I'm in the same boat as far as bewilderment is concerned.

Again, I thank all of you again.
You have shown me that I'm not alone in this and that there is hope.

Peace be with all of you,



  • Guest
All those names I don't know
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2005, 11:18:00 AM »

sorry for the confusion ... I was feeling particularly jovial at that point. My tone was completely good-natured.  I know none of the names you mentioned.  Of course, that would make sense, since my favorite book is the Perl Language "Camel" Book ...

do you really want to know?

Yes! I really want to know, and I'd be very interested to discuss. :) Actually, I'll be at FreezePeach today, to attend the ASS at about 1:30.  I have some work to do, but I could certainly burn a few hours talking about whatever.  So if anyone wants to show up to hang out, that would be cool.

Last time I was there, we had 4 or 5 folks in a conspiricy theory discussion, which was great fun.


Offline enigmacat

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Political Discussion
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2005, 11:47:47 AM »
darn it, i have this problem.  kinda embarrassing.  see, uh, i work in midtown.  but i might swing by the peach tonight, i have to drop off a cord.

i'll give you a brief rundown of the names i mentioned and if you check any of them out let me know what you think.

betrand russell was a british mathematician and philosopher.  some of his important works include "why i am not a christian" and "ideas that have harmed mankind" - incredibly witty and eloquent.  check him out here

nicholas kristoff and maureen dowd are columnist for the new york times.  you can check out their archives here at (you have to register, but it's free)  she is more funny and sarcastic, he is a bit more serious and substantial.  kristoff has done a lot to raise awareness for the situation in the sudan.  

 molly ivins - a columnist from texas who has published some books about bush, including, i believe, "bushwacked".  check out her columns here

wendy kaminer is a social critic and feminist.

my top pics for a discussion, in this order, are russell, kaminer and kristoff


  • Guest
Political Discussion
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2005, 12:00:59 PM »
Thank Enigmacat,

I'll check them out.   Yeah, I understand that problem with working in midtown.  I was forcibly cured of that problem a week ago - of course, i now have a chronic case of "nopaycheckitis".  :(


Offline enigmacat

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Political Discussion
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2005, 01:00:56 PM »
yeah, i have a feeling that's headed my way.

i'd just like to mention another writer who would be interesting for discussion, although more religious than political - john shelby spong.  although i am an atheist and he is a christian, i respect his attempts to drag christianity kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

in fact i'm way more interested in religion than politics.  here are several of his essays:

Offline enigmacat

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Ideas that have harmed/helped mankind - B. Russell
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2005, 12:42:14 PM »
at the very kind invitation of zeno, i suggest the following essays by the most admirable Bertrand Russell for discussion:

Ideas that have harmed mankind
Ideas that have helped mankind

ladies and gentlemen, start your engines, read and post!  if you would like to meet up in person for a discussion, please make the suggestion.

both essays are available here:


  • Guest
March on Washington Discussion continued here...
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2005, 11:11:09 PM »
This is a continuation of the discussion started under the Events (Community Calendar) which can be found here:


  • Guest
We've been betrayed by our government.
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2005, 03:59:36 PM »
I still don't believe that violent resistance/revolution is a solution.
When we stoop down to their level then what does it really matter who's in power? and how are we different from them? When victim becomes perpetrator is perpetrator still victim? I emphatically believe Yes, but where does this cycle end? and who will have the courage to end it? To strike back is the easy solution, to turn the other cheek, that requires great strength.

"Where did the Left loose it's fangs?"-Bill Maher

"We won't be fooled again!"-The Who

"When did the thief stop thinking and resorted to becoming a common thug?"-A prominent Gamer

"He will come as a thief in the night."-I Thessalonians 5:4,9-10

Artist: Meiko Kaji Lyrics
Song: The Flower of Carnage Lyrics
Asa ni
Tomorai no
Yuki ga furu

Hagure inu no
Geta no

Iin na naomosa
Mitsumete aruku
Yami wo dakishimeru
Janomeno kasa hitotsu

Inochi no michi wo
Yuku onna
Namida wa tooni

Kawa ni

Itteta tsuru wa
Ame to kaze

Kieta mizu mo ni
Hotsure ga miutsushi
Namida sae misenai
Janomeno kasa hitotsu

Urami no michi wo
Yuku onna
Kokoro wa tooni

Giri mo nasake mo
Namida mo yume no
Kinou mo ashita mo
Henno nai kotoba

Urami no kawa ni
Mi wo yudanete
Honma wa tooni



  • Guest
Federations and Republics
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2005, 04:08:24 PM »
I got this  definition from [italics and bold mine]

Federal republic
[Categories: Republicanism, Federalism]

A federal republic is, as the term suggests, a  state which is both a  federation and a republic. A federation is a state composed of a number of self-governing regions (often themselves referred to as 'states') united by a central, federal government. In a federation, unlike in a  unitary state, the self-governing status of autonomous regions is constitutionally entrenched and cannot be revoked by a unilateral decision of the central government. Usage of the term republic is inconsistent but, as a minimum, it means a state that does not have a monarch as [a] head of state.

Hmmm... what was that?


Neocons get your dictionary editors and eradicators mobilized!


  • Guest
Something to Ponder
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2005, 12:40:32 PM »
I thought this was kind of interesting. Does anyone have something to add? Maybe a list of their own?

Subject: Something to Ponder
Military History of Washington, DC VIPs

* Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.
* David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.
* Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.
* Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.
* Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.
* Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47; Medal of Honor, WWII.
* John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V,
Purple Hearts.
* Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.
* Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam.
* Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-53.
* Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.
* Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.
* Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII; Bronze Star and seven campaign
* Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze Stars, and
Soldier's Medal.
* Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and
Legion of Merit.
* Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart.
* Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze Star
with Combat V.
* Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.
* Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57
* Chuck Robb: Vietnam
* Howell Heflin: Silver Star
* George McGovern: Silver Star & DFC during WWII.
* Bill Clinton: Did not serve. Student deferments. Entered draft but
received #311.
* Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy.
* Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953
* John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and Air Medal with 18 Clusters.
* Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg.

Republicans --  These are the guys sending people to war:

* Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage.
* Dennis Hastert: did not serve.
* Tom Delay: did not serve.
* Roy Blunt: did not serve.
* Bill Frist: did not serve.
* Mitch McConnell: did not serve.
* Rick Santorum: did not serve.
* Trent Lott: did not serve.
* John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.
* Jeb Bush: did not serve.
* Karl Rove: did not serve.
* Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. "Bad knee." The man who attacked Max Cleland's patriotism.
* Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.
* Vin Weber: did not serve.
* Richard Perle: did not serve.
* Douglas Feith: did not serve.
* Eliot Abrams: did not serve.
* Richard Shelby: did not serve.
* Jon Kyl: did not serve.
* Tim Hutchison: did not serve.
* Christopher Cox: did not serve.
* Newt Gingrich: did not serve.
* Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor.
* George W. Bush: failed to complete his six-year National Guard; got
assigned to Alabama so he could campaign for family friend running for U.S. Senate; failed to show up for required medical exam, disappeared from duty.
* B-1 Bob Dornan: Consciously enlisted after fighting was over in Korea.
* Phil Gramm: did not serve.
* John McCain: Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and
Distinguished Flying Cross.
* Dana Rohrabacher: did not serve.
* John M. McHugh: did not serve.
* JC Watts: did not serve.
* Jack Kemp: did not serve. "Knee problem," although continued in NFL for 8 years.
* Dan Quayle: Journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard.
* Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.
* George Pataki: did not serve.
* Spencer Abraham: did not serve.
* John Engler: did not serve.
* Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer.
* Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base.
* Ronald Reagan: due to poor eyesight, served in a non-combat role making movies.

Pundits & Preachers

* Sean Hannity: did not serve.
* Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst.')
* Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.
* Michael Savage: did not serve.
* George Will: did not serve.
* Chris Matthews: did not serve.
* Paul Gigot: did not serve.
* Bill Bennett: did not serve.
* Pat Buchanan: did not serve.
* Bill Kristol: did not serve.
* Kenneth Starr: did not serve.
* Antonin Scalia: did not serve.
* Clarence Thomas: did not serve.
* Ralph Reed: did not serve.
* Michael Medved: did not serve.
* Charlie Daniels: did not serve.
* Ted Nugent: did not serve. (He only shoots at things that don't shoot
* John Wayne: did not serve.

Please keep this information circulating      Sen. Howard W. Carroll

"In this country it is found requisite, now and then, to put an admiral to
death, in order to encourage the others to fight."

--Voltaire   Following the pointless execution of an admiral in 18th
century France.


  • Guest
More on the list:
« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2005, 08:05:45 PM »
I got the following response to the dissemination of the above list titled "Something to Ponder".

Dear Zeno,

Thanks for this bit of interesting but tricky history. It does takes the chicken hawk argument to a more effective level. However, this approach is based on the notion that the Democrats are dovish while the Republicans are hawkish.


The implication here is that the hawkish Republicans have some nerve sending others to war when they themselves (with a few exceptions) avoided military duty; while the more peaceful Democrats probably got that way from their experience in the military. Tricky because (with some notable exceptions) the Democrats have failed to oppose and even supported the Republican’s militaristic imperial policy. The exceptions on both sides do not change the fact that both Republicans and Democrats together are supporting this war and the huge imperial military budget. We must never lose sight of the fact that during the presidential campaign, Kerry called for more troops to be sent to Iraq.      


To which I responded:


 Thank you for your reply and clarification. Looking at that list, I felt a twinge of something, but just couldn't put my finger on it. It is indeed tricky. A friend of mine said that it could be argued that Bush jr. when avoiding his duties in the military may have been in fact doing the one good thing in his life (taking a stand as a conscientious objector in order to avoid killing people). :-)

I see now that it is not one party that is responsible for warring. There is, I believe a continuity of strife that is passed from one administration to the next regardless of outward appearances. Could it be argued that the United States has been at war more than it has been at peace since it's inception?
I hope to see you soon.


P.S.: Can I post your response to where I also displayed the list? I can remove your name if you like. "" I think that more people can benefit from this exchange. My arguments on the board are pretty passionate, and yet I believe they may be more often than not, fallacious and lacking correct information.

To which he replied:

You are free to pass on anything I write with my name attached. I try
very hard, to so express my thoughts that I would never have to apologize
or be ashamed (it ain't easy - the temptation to disrespect opponents is
strong and hard to resist).

As for the real USA as opposed to the fairy tales spun by politicians on
the Fourth of July, see the attached files.


To which I provide the following links if anyone is interested:

From Wounded Knee to Afghanistan
Compiled by Zoltan Grossman"

"After 9/11, U.S. policy built on world bases
- James Sterngold, Chronicle Staff Writer
Sunday, March 21, 2004"

I hope this has been helpful,


  • Guest
Conspiracy theory
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2006, 07:07:48 PM »
I found this to be rather intriguing.  Seems like a good way to revive an oldie but goodie thread.


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