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Author Topic: Political Discussion  (Read 11225 times)

zeno

  • Guest
Political Discussion
« on: July 29, 2005, 06:32:38 PM »
Hi, how're you all doing.  Just wondering what people were thinking about
the current state of the world and the U.S. in particular.
  The thing that has been on my mind lately is the re-passing of the U.S.A.
PATRIOT Act and how maybe some of it's "sunset" clauses may conflict with our basic constitutional rights as citizens of this country.  Any thoughts on the topic would be appreciated.  I'm not quite sure myself what to think of it yet.
   It would be nice to hear some rantings & ravings or just some good ol' fashioned civilized debate from any and all sides of the political spectrum, about absolutely anything to do with freedom, security, privacy, laws, pollution, taxation, war, etc.
   I believe that these are exciting times that we're living in and to let it
pass by without comment would be saddening.

   Ciao :-)

[October 2005]: Below is a list of hyperlinks to political discussionisms (<Newspeak) as appeared or are appearing on astorians.net...
By doing this am I making Big Brother's job easier? or am I adding fuel to the fire that lights the proverbial as*ses of le Resistance? I took the liberty of putting an asterisk next to the topics that I thought most critical.
-zen (Content Free)

The Links:

From, General Astorian Discussion:
"Harriet Miers withdraws her nomination" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1005
"Oil profits" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1004
"P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=623
"conspiricy theory" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=899
"Harriet Miers' Blog" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=921
"Astoria- immigrants" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=177
"Rev Billy this |Sunday" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=914
"Reality TV" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=819
"Protest in Washington" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=811
"Hurricane Katrina" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=668&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
"A little political wit from Google" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=726
"The FEMA rap" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=716
"The Daily Show on Katrina" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=717
"mayoral candidate debates tonite 09.07.05" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=701
"Political Discussion Group" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=681
"Controversy surrounding Museums at Ground Zero" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=576
"NYCLU: RNC Protest Report" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=665
"True Majority - Oreos and Military Spending" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=653
"Democracy Triumphs Yet Again In America!!!" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=646
"The Gospel According to Pat Robertson" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=642
"Long Range Acoustic Device" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=633
"Pat Robertson urges assassination of Chavez" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=624
"Trash" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=467
"Equal Time for the Kansas City Schoolboard" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=615
"House Votes To Curb Patriot Act" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=468
"profiling people..a new thread spun from the WTC site thread" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=601
"Billionaires are at it again!!!" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=595
"Why I'm running for City Council in Astoria--Jerry Kann" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=573
"Happy Fourth of July!!!" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=495
"Why aren't liberals more politically active." http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=418
"A PS on the Whistleblowers" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=420
"The Whistle Blowers Strike Back!" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=390
"Have you been paying attention to what's going on in DC?" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=381
"Olympics 2012" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=375
"Who's Afraid of Intelligent Design?" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=347
"Cast the Devil out of the developers!!!" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=336
"CongressWoman & Heroine" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=334
"political thing from MoveOn" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=330
"The War Prayer by Mark Twain" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=329
"Come Exorcise Starbucks!" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=298
"An easy way to protest bush's inauguration" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=250
"Tsunami Relief Information" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=202
"Republican Santa Claus?" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=182
"It's Stalin's Birthday (and, Happy Winter Solstice)" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=188
"Recycled Christmas" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=166
"Native astorians, here ye!" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=130
"Attn: Social Worker Loan Forgiveness Program" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=127
"Election Map" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=126
*"Election audit murmurs brewing" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=117
*"the morning after..." http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=116
"No Friends on the Right?" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=115
"Terrifying Greetings..." http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=111
"Bush Cares About You!" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=110
"An EASY way to volunteer for KERRY/EDWARDS" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=109
"Astorians For Peace" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=97
"Reminder -- register to vote by Friday Oct. 8th" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=62
"John Kerry" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8

From, Community Calendar:

From, Activity Partners & Community Groups:
"INCESSANT NOISE POLLUTION IN ASTORIA" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=354
"New activist group" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=724
"Discuss World Press?" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=676
"Drinking Liberally" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=406

From, Issues & Writing: Politics, Spirituality, Debate, Rants, Manifestos, Essays
"Power versus Authority" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=755
"New documentary features Bush speech writer" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=959
"another pressing philosophical question" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=963
"Donations for Katrina: email from an actual relief worker" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=958
"The World Can't Wait" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=953
"World Can't Wait -- Flyer & website" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=955
"The World Can't Wait -- FAQ" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=954
"The "myth" of Iraq's foreign fighters" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=803
"Call the Capital Oct. 17 & 18-- Set's Congress's Priorit" Call the Capital Oct. 17 & 18-- Set's Congress's Priorit
"Brilliant Bush parodies" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=897
"I Trust My Government..." http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=889
"$5/gallon for 5 years" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=836
"Informal Poll conducted by MinTru" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=849
"Armenian Genocide" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=677
"Support the War in Iraq, Building Democracies..." http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=850
"MTA to BAN all photography in subways" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=155
"Two important wins for Free Software and open standards" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=830
"I want to join the military, but what are my rights?" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=807
"The government belongs to you" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=783
"Cowardly" http://astorians.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=732


[Stay tuned...]

Telesphoros

  • Guest
cart before the horse
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2005, 11:55:03 PM »
Actually, the measure has only passed with portions of the original act, so it's hard to say.  I'm willing to bet most people who think about it aren't behind it.  People who are easily scared and don't think of the consequences of what the actual details of the Patriot Act are (or even know what they are) will probably be rooting for it to pass.

zeno

  • Guest
In Memory of Jean Charles de Menezes (1978 – 22 July 2005)
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2005, 12:55:01 PM »
Thank you, Telesphoros for replying.
I am so glad that there are people who are willing to talk/communicate about these things.

"Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism (USA PATRIOT ACT) Act of 2001"

  At first glance a lot of the provisions (the original 2001 Act) seem to make sense and they even go so far as to say something to the effect that congress will be "condemning discrimination against Arab and Muslim Americans".  Hey, I'm all for obstructing terrorism.  Who isn't?

  I downloaded the 2001 version:

    http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/terrorism/hr3162.pdf
or
    http://tinyurl.com/83j9r

and I must say that it's pretty daunting as far as size goes (132 pages long).  I am not so clear about which parts were retained either "permanently" or not up for revoting until another 10 years.

Oh, O.K.,
I just googled it...

Here are two links, the latter of which goes into more detail about the 16 provisions that were set to expire, (14 of which did not).  They include such
things as "sneek and peek" searches, roving wiretaps, gaining personal information from libraries, bookstores and ISPs (which are prohibited from revealing that they even provided any information about their customers).  The article also lists some of the abuses of the act where people that had no links to terrorism were subject to surveillance and intimidation.
I also see that there is a lot of opposition to the law by both Republicans and Democrats.  I find it strange that the first Act was signed by Bush immediately after the capture of Sadam Hussein who is generally believed now not to have had any links with September 11th or Al Queda.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/07/21/patriot.act/

or    http://tinyurl.com/88zxw

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/democrats_dissent_patriot_act_721

or    http://tinyurl.com/csdta


Here is another article from the L.A. Daily News that states that, "The Senate voted unanimously Friday to make permanent virtually all the main provisions of the law known as the USA Patriot Act..." and also, "The House passed a bill of its own last week that would also extend the law's surveillance and law enforcement powers...".  However, there is also talk of Republican leaders agreeing to install civil-rights safeguards.

http://www.dailynews.com/Stories/0,1413,200~20954~2988186,00.html

or

http://tinyurl.com/a5f7t

I must confess that I'm feeling a little bit skeptical about the whole deal especially after being assured by the authorities in the aftermath of 9/11 that Americans would not be expected to give up their basic freedoms or alter their traditional values in order to feel a little "safer".

Let's keep this dialogue going,
 ----Zeno

zeno

  • Guest
C.F.A.B.F - Clingons for a Better Federation
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2005, 12:42:34 PM »
I know it's the weekend....buuuuuutt...
Anyone?  Anything?  MRIDude, you still there?  We played chess at one time, and I know you have something to contribute :-)
   Please, please, I'm lonely and I'm scared and I don't feel like discussing
HL2  :-)))))) , *drool_* right now.

Lot's of discussions can be held under this one topic so astorians.net doesn't start to look like some crazy leftist anti-corporate media outlet. Right-wingers welcome, "I" don't bite. :-Z .... ;-) willing to listen....((c

  Global warming?  Bombings in London? Tax reform? Economics, e.g. the trending of the GBP? RFID technology? Bush? Blair? Digital Millenium Act? RIAA? MPAA? FCC? RNC? DNC? MCI lawsuit? Privacy? Abortion? War in Iraq? Iran? Homeland Security? Prison Systems? Corporations, for example Halliburton, Borden Milk, Kraft,  ConEdison? Covance? McDonald's (Supersize Me!)?, NGOs...e.g. Greenpeace?, United Nations?
Noise/Light Pollution?

  Anyone want to suggest any good sources/links for news?, for example, FOX, CNN, NWI, BBC, Indymedia, WBAI?  Internet only broadcasts, (Slashdot?)

  I am waiting for meaningful discussion.
  I am glued to my LCD *:-0#
  Don't be afraid to speak, America is still free.  I'm drunk.
  Beam me up Scottie!

Addendum:  If anyone has played the fabulous game Half Life 2 and wants to discuss the story line, I do believe that a discussion of this nature could fit under this Topic.

  Cheers Astoira, Hiccup*

DISCLAIMER:  If you are ree-ading... Ahhhh, Nevermind.

Offline merm

  • Administrator
  • Governor
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2643
  • Gender: Female
Political Discussion
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2005, 06:57:41 PM »
I'm wondering what they mean by "virtually all provisions" were adapted and renewed. Were there ANY that weren't renewed?

zeno

  • Guest
We have always been at war with Eastasia....-Orwell
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2005, 08:40:39 PM »
Yes, the whole act was renewed, with the exception of 2 out of 16 "sunset" clauses which were set to expire this year providing that the "Crisis" was over.  It will be another "10" years before these provisions will come up for revision or dismissal.
  However, many parts of the act were up for revision even though their institution became "permanent".

  For example: the law granting the Justice department to investigate library records and bookstore purchases of individuals without a warrant must now first be granted permission (in writing) by the director of the F.B.I.

  These surveillance initiatives are really the tip of the iceberg however.  What seems to me to be even more frightening is that under this act it will (has) become perfectly legal to detain ANY alien or someone of less than citizen status for indefinite periods of time while totally circumventing the right to a formal trial or even the right to even be formally charged with a crime; IOW, due process.

  Many, at this moment, are languishing in prison without being able to communicate with family or even an attorney for extended periods of time.
What is even more disturbing is that many of these so-called "threats" have been released (after serving several years) without ever have been charged and not so much as an apology.  In addition to this, many (if not all) have been tortured.

  But, I digress.  These so-called "records of abuse" are wholeheartedly denied by the proponents of this law just as global warming as a now established scientific Fact has until this year also been denied by this administration.  Once, a long long time ago, the Earth was also Flat.

  Anyone disagree?  I'm really not 100% sure I have all my facts straight.
But my overall impression is that the repassing of this Law forebodes something very ominous for us all in the near future.  Wiretapping someone's phone in the not so distant past was once considered a gross violation... now it seems to be taken for granted as standard operation procedure.
 
----Zeno

zeno

  • Guest
Political Discussion
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2005, 08:47:52 PM »
I may be going out on a limb here but maybe in Newspeak
"Virtually all" = "All but a couple" ;-)

Telesphoros

  • Guest
another thought
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2005, 09:19:38 PM »
Let's not forget that the House and Senate versions have to be reconciled before anything can be sent to the president for approval.  We won't know what the final version will be until congress is back in session from their long break.  I wish I had that much vacation...

http://news.com.com/Patriot+Act+debate+will+resume+in+fall/2100-1028_3-5814366.html?part=rss&tag=5814366&subj=newshttp://

zeno

  • Guest
PATRIOT Act
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2005, 11:45:45 AM »
Thank you for the clarification, Telesphoros.  I found the links within the article that you mentioned very helpful, especially where it mentions the 16 sections that were set to expire.

  I really hope that the citizens of our community will get together and protest this IMHO Draconian Law.  Or is peaceful civil disobedience outlawed yet?

  In Peace, Justice,

----Zeno

Telesphoros

  • Guest
Re: PATRIOT Act
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2005, 03:58:35 PM »
Quote from: Zeno
Thank you for the clarification, Telesphoros.  I found the links within the article that you mentioned very helpful, especially where it mentions the 16 sections that were set to expire.

  I really hope that the citizens of our community will get together and protest this IMHO Draconian Law.  Or is peaceful civil disobedience outlawed yet?

  In Peace, Justice,

----Zeno


*joke alert*
No, that right is set for the 17th unpublished double secret provision of the revised Patriot Act where all civil liberties are thrown out and we each get to host a soldier in our homes to prove that we aren't terrorists.

Now back to regularly scheduled reality....

zeno

  • Guest
Occlusion
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2005, 04:23:34 PM »
:-)

   Isn't that the provision that's set to be written in invisible ink?

http://educ.queensu.ca/~fmc/may2004/invisible.html

----cypher----

Telesphoros

  • Guest
George Carlin on the constitution
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2005, 06:59:34 PM »
CONSTITUTION
They keep talking about drafting a Constitution for Iraq. Why don't we
just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys,
it's worked for over 200 years and we're not using it anymore.

zeno

  • Guest
S**t, P**s, F**k, C**t, C********r, M****r*****r and T**s
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2005, 10:11:16 PM »
I can think of where Congress is using the Constitution...[potty humor]

   Just a matter of time before those 7 taboo words are not allowed on the internet as well.  Why look, I've even censored myself!  And I believe that it's a council of 12 (FCC) that is censoring the rest of the nation.  Twelve.
  Who will "govern" the global intarweb?

  This link is pretty interesting, some Penn & Teller info on PATRIOT Act, and thankfully they think it's bulls**t.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/06/14.html

------------------
"the more that i see, the less i believe
the barbed wire fences have replaced all the trees..."
-Fun Boy Three

sweet dreams Astoria,
   ----zzzzzeno

Telesphoros

  • Guest
uh...
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2005, 10:49:47 PM »
Ok, I have no idea what I can add.  I'll critique the last link....

It was amusing, but it was really only a readers digest look at the patriot act.  It's worth taking the time to watch for entertainment value but only marginally useful in informing on the topic.

The use of the concept of what a common person would do was hopefully something the general public will be able to relate to.  The idea of trying to stop "the bad guys" is indeed admirable, but the problem as in all aspects of life crops up in the execution and serious consideration needs to be given to cost/benefit.  Every goverment agent you give these sweeping powers (i.e., sneak and peak, etc.) will use them only as well as his character will allow.  Someone is bound to do something bad and to what end?  In the hope that we MIGHT catch a bad guy?  Not worth it to me.  'Nuff said.  Someone else give some insight.

zeno

  • Guest
Need more Input
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2005, 11:22:38 PM »
Amen, Telesphoros.

I think we're already in agreement, and BTW there already have been abuses.  Many, in fact.

It is my hope that at this, IMHO "crucial" hour that there will be more feedback on this burning topic.  Even an opinion differing from those of the people who have already posted (all 3!) will be most welcome.  I promise not to bite.

 ----zeno

I will keep bulletin board silence for three (3) days, and if there is no response to the topic then I guess I'll just keep spouting some more conspiracy-leftist liberal political b***sh** until I get it out of my system or until a M.I.B. knocks on my door in the middle of the night and (hopefully politely) asks me to stop.

P.S.:  Even though the topic until now has been the PATRIOT Act there are also many more "burning" issues that can use some dialogue if anyone is so inclined.
I, personally cannot sleep at night until I feel as if I've made some kind of sense of or at least communicated with another human being my bewilderment at the world around us.


 

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