relax

Author Topic: Angry about the healthcare bill?  (Read 13829 times)

Offline Debbie

  • Senator
  • ********
  • Posts: 1151
Re: Angry about the healthcare bill?
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2010, 04:45:11 PM »
If you think socialistic medicine is so great, why did the Premier of Canada come to the US for healthcare? 

I'm pretty sure the Canadian PM has more $$$ than you or I and can afford whatever procedure he had.  The question is, can you or I afford it?  What good is it if your treatment winds up bankrupting you?  What good is medication that treats a condition if you have to eat spaggetti the rest of your life to be able to afford it?  What good is a liver transplant for your child if your child dies while waiting for the insurance company to decide whether they will cover the transplant?

And finally, why do my friends in Albany drive to Canada for their meds?

Offline kempsternyc

  • Senator
  • ********
  • Posts: 1599
  • Gender: Male
  • Me in a bowler hat and nowhere to go.
I love talking about nothing father, it is the only thing I know anything about -

Lord Goring "An Ideal Husband"

Offline Billz1981

  • Senator
  • ********
  • Posts: 1040
  • Gender: Male
Re: Angry about the healthcare bill?
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2010, 07:19:18 PM »
What good is a liver transplant for your child if your child dies while waiting for the insurance company to decide whether they will cover the transplant?

Yeah but that sort of thing is not unique to the American system.  In fact, I have heard many stories of death because people have had to wait for their spot to open on the list in universal health countries.

Guess someone else is angry too.
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/03/25/2010-03-25_rep_anthony_weiner_receives__threatening_letter_suspicious_package_after_health_.html

There are countless thousands of us who are angry.  The vast majority will express this anger without resorting to violence.  But we will be heard and our anger will be felt.

Offline kempsternyc

  • Senator
  • ********
  • Posts: 1599
  • Gender: Male
  • Me in a bowler hat and nowhere to go.
Re: Angry about the healthcare bill?
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2010, 08:26:21 PM »
I just gotta inject this moment of reality.

No matter what, you will pay for healthcare. Whether you pay an HMO or you pay through your taxes. you will pay.

I think, at least for me, I support a more socialized system because it evens out how you pay. And it doesn't penalize you if you have a major health issue that costs tens of thousands of dollars. In other words, it will lead to a more equitable system.

But, there is no such thing as free healthcare.

I'm only saying this because one is opening oneself up to ridicule if one makes the utopian argument that healthcare in other countries is free and that a reason to support it.
I love talking about nothing father, it is the only thing I know anything about -

Lord Goring "An Ideal Husband"

Offline NYCMacUser

  • President
  • **************
  • Posts: 8297
  • Gender: Female
  • Bippidi Boppidi Boo!
Re: Angry about the healthcare bill?
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2010, 08:52:19 PM »
In fact, I have heard many stories of death because people have had to wait for their spot to open on the list in universal health countries.
If you can find the time, would you please quote a reliable source for this. I lived across the pond and I never read or heard anything of the sort. I suspect these kinds of stories are all apocryphal, either made up by, or spread from opponents of Socialized/Universal Health Care.
Women are like teabags.
We don't know our true strength
until we are in hot water! â€”Eleanor Roosevelt

Offline kempsternyc

  • Senator
  • ********
  • Posts: 1599
  • Gender: Male
  • Me in a bowler hat and nowhere to go.
Re: Angry about the healthcare bill?
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2010, 09:12:17 PM »
If you can find the time, would you please quote a reliable source for this. I lived across the pond and I never read or heard anything of the sort. I suspect these kinds of stories are all apocryphal, either made up by, or spread from opponents of Socialized/Universal Health Care.

I have heard of waiting for elective surgery and things like that. But as a general rule, you pretty much get seen right away and helped with no questions. Even if you are an American in France. I've actually heard a few first person accounts of Americans needing treatment while in France and getting it....no questions asked.
I love talking about nothing father, it is the only thing I know anything about -

Lord Goring "An Ideal Husband"

Offline Billz1981

  • Senator
  • ********
  • Posts: 1040
  • Gender: Male
Re: Angry about the healthcare bill?
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2010, 11:17:02 PM »
If you can find the time, would you please quote a reliable source for this. I lived across the pond and I never read or heard anything of the sort. I suspect these kinds of stories are all apocryphal, either made up by, or spread from opponents of Socialized/Universal Health Care.

I sure do have a source, actually!  You know who is a really great source for that sort of story is James Taranto at the Wall Street Journal.  If you're not familiar with James, he's a columnist who writes a daily "Best of the Web."  In it, he picks his favorite news stories from the day and does a logical deconstruction of them.  He regularly chronicles such stories under the heading "Great Moments in Socialized Medicine." He's got sort of an acerbic wit and always notes he is glad that such stories are "false."  He provides the original links to the news articles so you can view them for yourself and not just his column, which is decidedly biased.  I have pasted below such an excerpt from his March 8, 2010 column.  As his links were not preserved in my pasted excerpt, you can view the original with news links to the papers in question here: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703936804575108580191194318.html


Great Moments in Socialized Medicine
"Damning reports on the state of the National Health Service, suppressed by the government, reveal how patients' needs have been neglected," reports London's Sunday Times:

    They diagnose a blind pursuit of political and managerial targets as the root cause of a string of hospital scandals that have cost thousands of lives.

    The harsh verdict on the state of the NHS, after a spending splurge under Labour between 2000 and 2008, raises worrying questions about the future quality of the health service as budgets are squeezed.

The reports found that "a damaging rift between doctors and managers," "pointless new structures" and "a culture of fear and slavish compliance" led, among other results, to a disregard for "basic hygiene" so as "to cram in patients to meet waiting-time targets."

What we don't understand is why the government would suppress the reports. That makes it look as if officials have something to hide. Instead, they could have published the reports but put on the cover this authoritative disclaimer from former Enron adviser Paul Krugman: "In Britain, the government itself runs the hospitals and employs the doctors. We've all heard scare stories about how that works in practice; these stories are false."

Thank goodness these stories are false, because some of them, like this one from London's Daily Mail, is truly horrifying:

    A man of 22 died in agony of dehydration after three days in a leading teaching hospital.

    Kane Gorny was so desperate for a drink that he rang police to beg for their help.

    They arrived on the ward only to be told by doctors that everything was under control.

    The next day his mother Rita Cronin found him delirious and he died within hours.

    She said nurses had failed to give him vital drugs which controlled fluid levels in his body. 'He was totally dependent on the nurses to help him and they totally betrayed him.'

Meanwhile, here's a story of someone facing bankruptcy owing to medical costs. The twist is he's Canadian. From the Toronto Sun:

    Suffering from brain cancer, Kent Pankow was literally forced to go to the ayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn. for lifesaving surgery--at a cost to family and friends of $106,000--after the health-care system in Alberta left him hanging in bureaucratic limbo for 16 crucial days, his tumour meanwhile migrating to an unreachable part of the brain, while it dithered over his case file, ultimately deciding he was not surgery worthy.

    Now, with the Mayo Clinic having done what the Alberta Cancer Board wouldn't authorize or even explain, but with the tumour unable to be totally removed, the province will now not fund the expensive drug, Avastin, that the Mayo prescribed to keep him alive and keep the remaining tumour from increasing in size--despite the costs of the drug being totally funded by the province for other forms of cancer.

    Kent Pankow, as it turns out, has the right disease but he has it in the wrong place.

    Had he lung cancer, breast cancer, or colon cancer, then the cost of the drug--$4,555 per treatment, two times a month--would be totally covered by Alberta's version of OHIP [Ontario Health Insurance Plan].

    But he doesn't.

    And so he is not only a victim of brain cancer, he is also a victim of arbitrary discrimination.

The good news is that President Obama remains committed to bringing U.S. health care into line with Canadian standards. If he succeeds, sick Canadians will eventually be set free from the ruinous temptations of places like the Mayo Clinic.

Offline jmlara

  • Resident
  • **
  • Posts: 16
Re: Angry about the healthcare bill?
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2010, 11:57:22 PM »
Ok, to all of you  who are intent on burning braincells being angry about the health care bill, have you never heard of Medicare, Medicaid, or the VA Hospital System?

Guess What Folks...THEY'RE ALL A FORM OF UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE!

* post modified by moderator
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 11:48:17 AM by daisy »

Offline Mckenna797

  • Running for Mayor
  • *****
  • Posts: 484
Re: Angry about the healthcare bill?
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2010, 01:32:07 AM »
Have you ever used the VA health Care system in general they do a good job but  it takes about a month to get appointments and longer for more in demand specialties not to mention the paperwork  to enroll in the VA system

Offline neo11

  • Mayor
  • ******
  • Posts: 781
Re: Angry about the healthcare bill?
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2010, 01:34:38 AM »
For all these cherry-picked horror stories about "socialized" health care, I'm sure that one could just as easily find plenty of horror stories about uninsured Americans who were forced to die, go into debt or bankruptcy, etc. because they could not afford necessary care or because they had a "pre-existing condition" which insurance companies saw fit to not insure.  Oh, and the many Americans who go on "medical tourism" trips to countries like India, where they are treated by American-trained doctors for a fraction of the prohibitive cost in the states.

Offline Billz1981

  • Senator
  • ********
  • Posts: 1040
  • Gender: Male
Re: Angry about the healthcare bill?
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2010, 01:55:14 AM »
Ok, to all of you who are intent on burning braincells being angry about the health care bill, have you never heard of Medicare, Medicaid, or the VA Hospital System?

Guess What Folks...THEY'RE ALL A FORM OF UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE!

First of all, I'm sure the mods will second me in saying that we don't refer to each other that way around here, friendo.  Second of all, what does whether any of those government entitlement programs you just named are "universal healthcare" have to do with whether or not people are opposed to the bill?  You do understand that the health care bill is not an example of universal healthcare, right?  And that people are against it despite that, right?  You do also know that many of the people who are against the bill recognize that Medicare, Medicaid, and the VA are poorly run and have serious problems with them, right?  So what was your point again?  Some gentle advice, friend; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlKL_EpnSp8

For all these cherry-picked horror stories about "socialized" health care, I'm sure that one could just as easily find plenty of horror stories about uninsured Americans who were forced to die, go into debt or bankruptcy, etc. because they could not afford necessary care or because they had a "pre-existing condition" which insurance companies saw fit to not insure.  Oh, and the many Americans who go on "medical tourism" trips to countries like India, where they are treated by American-trained doctors for a fraction of the prohibitive cost in the states.

Read.  The.  Thread.  I posted that example of problems with socialized medicine because of an earlier exchange.  Initially I pointed out that although people die of not getting liver transplants because their insurance company drags their feet in the U.S. (per Debbie), people also die because of mistakes in socialized medicine.  NYCMACUSER then called me out on that assertion, so I posted one example with citations.  At no time did I or anyone else argue that problems are unique to one system of medicine.

* Thanks, Billy.  The offending comment was altered by moderator.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 11:50:21 AM by daisy »

Offline Speebs

  • Running for Mayor
  • *****
  • Posts: 461
  • recidivist transit grinder
Re: Angry about the healthcare bill?
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2010, 12:23:14 PM »
examples

OK, so now we have established that mismanagement and beurocracy will occur under both government-run or privately-run healthcare systems, so we can strike that from the list of talking points.

Offline odenhal

  • Mayor
  • ******
  • Posts: 673
  • Gender: Male
Re: Angry about the healthcare bill?
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2010, 12:39:25 PM »
OK, so now we have established that mismanagement and beurocracy will occur under both government-run or privately-run healthcare systems, so we can strike that from the list of talking points.

NO
you can not deny this gorgeosness, you can only hope to handle it

Offline Sweeper

  • Mayor
  • ******
  • Posts: 875
Re: Angry about the healthcare bill?
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2010, 09:09:27 AM »
Ok, to all of you  who are intent on burning braincells being angry about the health care bill, have you never heard of Medicare, Medicaid, or the VA Hospital System?

Guess What Folks...THEY'RE ALL A FORM OF UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE!

* post modified by moderator


My dictionary has a different definition of Universal.

Offline Clueless

  • Tourist
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Angry about the healthcare bill?
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2010, 04:16:00 PM »
I rather my tax money go for an effort on universal health care in this country, than it going to senseless wars that republicans deemed necessary to run into.

We trust them to protect out lives with guns and bombs, but not with our health. Wonderful.

Like I stated before, what we have now is bulls$%@. Any self respecting doctor, pharmacist and insurance customer service representatives (who daily neglect health insurance), will tell you this.

The proposed bill might lack in much, but it's a step forward.
Not neglecting children insurance because of pre-existing conditions is a step forward.
Morally, I cannot NOT fight for this.

We did not strive forward in this country by constantly saying no, and keeping to our safe little box.
If it ends up being a mistake, then we learn and move forward.
We already went through 2 terms of mistakes, I'm sure we can handle more kiddies, haha.


 

Visit our sister site Jackson Heights Life