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Author Topic: Obama and his economic team get failing marks from economists  (Read 11144 times)

Offline kempsternyc

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Re: Obama and his economic team get failing marks from economists
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2009, 12:56:35 AM »
It would be interesting to see their polling data adjusted against party identification.  In other words, economists could be for or against a candidate for various reasons, but still see their economic policies as problematic.

In fairness to President Obama, I think we should hold out on judgment.  He is dealing with an unprecedented economic crisis.  I disagree with most of his fundamental economic assumptions, but I do respect that he's trying.

I do think that this speaks to a point I made throughout the election.  Obama prior to becoming president existed only as potential energy.  Now it's time to deliver on his promises.  But people hung their hopes on him more than any other candidate in memory.  Heck, he even branded himself as the "hope" candidate.  And it turns out, Obama is just a man, and a politician like any other.  I don't fault him for it, but it was a bit naive of the American public to expect him to transcend all that.  Maybe what I think is about to happen to the economy will be cathartic.

I must admit to grasping to the HOPE part....for many reasons....

I do agree with you about the party identification part regarding the economists....Paul Krugman...a liberal economist, is not very excited by the stimulus package. He didn't think it went far enough.
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Offline Billz1981

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Re: Obama and his economic team get failing marks from economists
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2009, 09:53:28 AM »
Okay, I admit it's not the perfect analogy to describe global economics.

Generally though I'm not really buying the trickle-down economic theory anymore. I think we should try trickle-up for a while. Take the money from the rich, give it to the poor. The poor will then go out and spend the money, giving it back to the rich.

The idea of "taking" money from anyone to solve the problems of someone else really spooks me.  That's not what America is all about.

I must admit to grasping to the HOPE part....for many reasons....

I do agree with you about the party identification part regarding the economists....Paul Krugman...a liberal economist, is not very excited by the stimulus package. He didn't think it went far enough.

Krugman was also an Enron adviser.  We all make mistakes sometimes, I guess.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 10:04:15 AM by Billz1981 »

Offline kempsternyc

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Re: Obama and his economic team get failing marks from economists
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2009, 10:13:42 AM »



Krugman was also an Enron adviser.  We all make mistakes sometimes, I guess.

In what aspect? I only ask because it seems out of character.
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Offline Billz1981

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Re: Obama and his economic team get failing marks from economists
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2009, 10:19:28 AM »
In what aspect? I only ask because it seems out of character.

Apparently he made some speeches, served on an advisory board.  I don't think he was the top guy or anything, it's just an interesting piece of trivia.

Here's an old CNN transcript for 2002 with some details: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0201/26/rs.00.html

Offline Harlan

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Re: Obama and his economic team get failing marks from economists
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2009, 11:06:50 AM »
I highly recommend everyone read this rant from an economic journalist, writing his personal opinion about the situation:

Quote
I've felt more afraid today than I have in months. I was assuming that the government would, eventually, solve things. They'd try a lot of bad ideas, they'd be late and imperfect and inefficient. But they'd solve things. Today -- it's just a feeling -- but I started thinking that maybe they won't solve things. Maybe they'll be so politicized and so populist that the economy will collapse.

Billz, you'll be pleased to hear that's he's not particularly positive towards the Obama administration. (Although I think he thinks they're doing at least somewhat better than the Bush admin did...)

The idea of "taking" money from anyone to solve the problems of someone else really spooks me.  That's not what America is all about.

Actually, surveys show something like 90% approval for basic safety-net programs like Social Security, food stamps, and unemployment insurance. So, you're wrong. You must be confusing "America" with "The Republic of Minerva". Easy mistake to make...

Offline Sweeper

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Re: Obama and his economic team get failing marks from economists
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2009, 12:05:05 PM »
Quote
Actually, surveys show something like 90% approval for basic safety-net programs like Social Security, food stamps, and unemployment insurance.

Source Please. And is there a way to be more specific with terms such as "basic"?

Many have the concept that the current financial situation is a) unprecedented b)catastrophic c)too complicated for simple minded folk (i.e. taxpayers) to understand.
And they would be wrong on all three counts.
But that won't stop this, or any other, administration from ratcheting up the fear to get what they want. I am sure they will justify it to themselves that it is for the greater good. But it is not.
And a little history, there was no low income housing crisis in the 90s. But a previous administration tricked the American people into believing there was. Can anyone guess how that turned out?
And now there is a make believe "health care crisis"
And, of course, an "environmental crisis"
And, the never ending, "crisis in education"

The funny thing is the more the government gets involved in these things, the greater the crisis grows. It's an ugly cycle and it will not end well.


Offline Harlan

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Re: Obama and his economic team get failing marks from economists
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2009, 12:20:12 PM »
Source Please.

Quote
Approximately 9 in 10 non-retired Americans agree (91% in 1995 and 88% in 2005) that "Maybe I won't need Social Security when I retire, but I definitely want to know it's there just in case I do."
(AARP survey)

There's certainly more than 10% support for privatizing SS, but even under that case, it would still have a social net aspect to it.

Offline Billz1981

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Re: Obama and his economic team get failing marks from economists
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2009, 01:17:09 PM »
Actually, surveys show something like 90% approval for basic safety-net programs like Social Security, food stamps, and unemployment insurance. So, you're wrong. You must be confusing "America" with "The Republic of Minerva". Easy mistake to make...

I'm not saying that we should abolish all taxation or programs for the common good.  I'm saying we should be leery of this sudden attitudinal shift towards, "Let's go after the rich guys."  Why are they any less entitled to keep what they earn than anyone else?  Bear in mind, it is the congress who gets to make most of these decisions, a group who is not composed of economists or business experts, and who is beholden to collective whims of their constituents.  America was basically founded as a protest of the violation of individual property rights.  We can't lose sight of that.

Offline Sweeper

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Re: Obama and his economic team get failing marks from economists
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2009, 01:30:35 PM »
(AARP survey)

There's certainly more than 10% support for privatizing SS, but even under that case, it would still have a social net aspect to it.
Thanks for the link.

But why throw in food stamps and unemployment insurance? Clearly this survey report deals with social security only. I honestly understand the need for a basic safety net but it is not where we get in trouble. The trouble comes from government programs that take on a life of their own. Food stamps are a great example. It quickly gets morphed with school lunch programs. But then breakfast programs get thrown in. Stop and say "wait, is this a good idea?" and you will quickly be labelled as someone who hates children and the poor. But who is pushing these programs? And then the government will expand these programs to people who neither need them or want them. Example: Here is the USDA site that give helpful instructions on how to "market" (their word, not mine) school breakfast programs:

http://www.fns.usda.gov/cnd/breakfast/expansion/marketingideas.htm#celebrate

My favorite is where they suggest using a recorded message for parents who are on hold!
This insanity needs to stop. The citizens of this great nations are yelling past each other while every avenue of public (and private) life is being infested by politicians who have but one goal: self aggrandizing.

Offline kempsternyc

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Re: Obama and his economic team get failing marks from economists
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2009, 12:18:26 AM »
Apparently he made some speeches, served on an advisory board.  I don't think he was the top guy or anything, it's just an interesting piece of trivia.

Here's an old CNN transcript for 2002 with some details: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0201/26/rs.00.html


I did a search and found some info on wiki....it seems that overall he was embarrassed with the job. It was one of those....oh s___ moments....that i have a feeling many have had.
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Offline kempsternyc

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Re: Obama and his economic team get failing marks from economists
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2009, 12:23:59 AM »
I'm not saying that we should abolish all taxation or programs for the common good.  I'm saying we should be leery of this sudden attitudinal shift towards, "Let's go after the rich guys." 

I will say this.....the vote in the House today to tax 90% of bonuses is the dumbest thing I have heard of in a while. While I do not believe that the AIG division that helped create the derivative/credit swap mess deserve bonuses.... I don't like the path Congress is going down.
I love talking about nothing father, it is the only thing I know anything about -

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Offline kempsternyc

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Re: Obama and his economic team get failing marks from economists
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2009, 01:25:53 AM »
Okay...can we get rid of the Nods.....I did two posts that really weren't confrontational at all and both were neg nodded....why? Because you don't like me????? Or you disagrees with what I said....than if so...state why...don't hit a button...sheesh.
I love talking about nothing father, it is the only thing I know anything about -

Lord Goring "An Ideal Husband"

Offline kempsternyc

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Re: Obama and his economic team get failing marks from economists
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2009, 01:27:19 AM »
Okay...can we get rid of the Nods.....I did two posts that really weren't confrontational at all and both were neg nodded....why? Because you don't like me????? Or you disagrees with what I said....than if so...state why...don't hit a button...sheesh.

Or maybe the last neg nod was an employee of AIG? Can't help but wonder.
I love talking about nothing father, it is the only thing I know anything about -

Lord Goring "An Ideal Husband"

Offline enigmacat

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Re: Obama and his economic team get failing marks from economists
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2009, 09:15:56 AM »
I have mixed feelings. I don't think AIG should have used the bailout $$ for the bonuses. Better to have found another way to pay it, or to go back to the employees and re-negotiate.

My initial assumption was that the people getting bonuses are all "fat cats" who are pulling in a few hundred thousand a year. But really, a lot of those people are probably lower-level employees, making under 100K, who made plans and committments based on the bonus that was promised to them. I can put myself in their shoes and see how much it could hurt to be counting on a couple thousand dollars and then not get it. They're not separate from us - they are threatened by the economy too, and worried about losing their jobs too. They aren't getting bonuses in a vacuum.

I'm not comfortable with the tax, either. But I need to read more about it.

I interviewed for a job at AIG a couple of years ago. Just as well I didn't get it.

Offline Harlan

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Re: Obama and his economic team get failing marks from economists
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2009, 09:23:42 AM »
My initial assumption was that the people getting bonuses are all "fat cats" who are pulling in a few hundred thousand a year. But really, a lot of those people are probably lower-level employees, making under 100K, who made plans and committments based on the bonus that was promised to them.

Fortunately, the rule that the house passed applies the tax only to bonuses that boost total family income over $250,000. Everyone else that got one of those bonuses will not pay the additional tax. Will be interesting to see what the Senate does with this...

         
Quote
    (1) IN GENERAL- The term `TARP bonus' means, with respect to any individual for any taxable year, the lesser of--

                  (A) the aggregate disqualified bonus payments received from covered TARP recipients during such taxable year, or

                  (B) the excess of--

                        (i) the adjusted gross income of the taxpayer for such taxable year, over

                        (ii) $250,000 ($125,000 in the case of a married individual filing a separate return).


 

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