relax

Author Topic: So how much is this "stimulus" plan going to cost us?  (Read 5406 times)

Offline Billz1981

  • Senator
  • ********
  • Posts: 1040
  • Gender: Male
So how much is this "stimulus" plan going to cost us?
« on: January 30, 2009, 05:49:01 PM »
I have my doubts as to whether the alleged stimulus package will actually work.  It is loaded with provisions that won't actually stimulate the economy, but will cost the federal taxpayer a hefty sum.  Some examples: funding for road maintenance that would otherwise be left to states and localities, and funding for government employees (the only sector where employment numbers are not hurting!).  How this package will spur the economy is beyond me.  It just illustrates that Congress is not a body of economic experts.

But, whether you're for or against the stimulus, it is good to know how much it will cost you, the taxpayer.  Of course, numbers are just an abstraction.  How many of us really know what constitutes a billion?  So I commend to you this ingenious chart: http://www.suitablyflip.com/suitably_flip/2009/01/stimulus-illustrated.html

It compares the cost of the stimulus plan to other expensive projects in American history.  My personal highlight: It's bigger than the New Deal and the Iraq War combined.

Also of note: The only relatively modest component of the spending bonanza is the money tagged for infrastructure and energy efficiency (the ostensibly stimulative part), which accounts for less than 14% of the total.

Thanks, Congress!  :mrgreen:


Offline Harlan

  • Governor
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2102
  • Gender: Male
  • Lemon Pistachios
    • Photos...
Re: So how much is this "stimulus" plan going to cost us?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2009, 08:12:32 PM »
It just illustrates that Congress is not a body of economic experts.

True, but the vast majority of people who are economic experts support some sort of Keynesian stimulus. Which, arguably, this package is (plus some stuff that's, as you say, not). For now, I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt, although I tend to agree that it's not front-loaded enough.

Quote
But, whether you're for or against the stimulus, it is good to know how much it will cost you, the taxpayer. 

Letsee, call it an even trillion bucks. There are about 300 million Americans. So, the stimulus package will cost, over the next N years to pay it off, something like $3000 for a median taxpayer. Which is annoying, but not devastating. And if you are at risk of losing your job, and this reduces those chances, it's a bargain.

Quote
It compares the cost of the stimulus plan to other expensive projects in American history.  My personal highlight: It's bigger than the New Deal and the Iraq War combined.

I'm not sure what they're counting as "The New Deal". Social Security has been many, many times that large over the life of the program, and that's the quintessential New Deal program. Same with unemployment insurance. If they just mean the short-term spending aspects, then yes, and Keynes himself complained that FDR didn't spend enough money until WWII started.


Offline Sweeper

  • Mayor
  • ******
  • Posts: 875
Re: So how much is this "stimulus" plan going to cost us?
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2009, 09:18:39 AM »
I have two problems here (just two?): First is that it is not stimulative. This WSJ op-ed reports that 12 cents for every dollar of this bill could even remotely be considered stimulative.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123310466514522309.html
Second, it lumps political spending, which should be debated in appropriations negotiations, in with an "emergency bill. This is partisan hypocrisy in a time when everyone is told to leave the partisanship at the door.

Quote
Letsee, call it an even trillion bucks. There are about 300 million Americans. So, the stimulus package will cost, over the next N years to pay it off, something like $3000 for a median taxpayer. Which is annoying, but not devastating. And if you are at risk of losing your job, and this reduces those chances, it's a bargain

Those numbers do not come close to reflecting the reality that is the current tax structure of the country. It assumes that there are 300 million tax payers, which there are not. I have no intention of checking the numbers, but a household making $150,000 can expect to pay closer to $30,000 (if the Numbers are to be believed)
http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/67907/

Offline Billz1981

  • Senator
  • ********
  • Posts: 1040
  • Gender: Male
Re: So how much is this "stimulus" plan going to cost us?
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2009, 06:58:39 PM »
I noticed that someone thumbed Sweeper and I down.  I'd be seriously interested to know what that person's gripe is.  Although figures are open to some degree of interpretation, they don't lie.  As Sweeper and I understand the data, that stimulus package won't be stimulative, and it will cost the taxpayers a mint.  In a way, I feel depressed, because I know that what congress is doing will likely make things worse, and there is nothing I can do to help people.  I know that there will be opportunity in the ashes, but that is cold comfort.

Is the problem with our argument that we're not being hopeful enough?  There is data to suggest that the stimulus is only digging us deeper into the hole.  Seriously, what is the contra argument held by the thumbs downer?  Was the thumbs down just a drive by, reflexively pro-bama thing?

Offline Harlan

  • Governor
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2102
  • Gender: Male
  • Lemon Pistachios
    • Photos...
Re: So how much is this "stimulus" plan going to cost us?
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2009, 07:50:55 PM »
Those numbers do not come close to reflecting the reality that is the current tax structure of the country. It assumes that there are 300 million tax payers, which there are not. I have no intention of checking the numbers, but a household making $150,000 can expect to pay closer to $30,000 (if the Numbers are to be believed)
http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/67907/

Yes, that's $3000/person, not per taxpayer. I think that about half the population works, so you could double that to $6000, if you like. $150,000 is something like three or four times the median income in this country, so I'm not sure what you're trying to argue... I'm certainly not going to end up paying anything like that. If you are, lucky you.

Offline Sweeper

  • Mayor
  • ******
  • Posts: 875
Re: So how much is this "stimulus" plan going to cost us?
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2009, 11:29:46 AM »
This site is too good to be true:
http://stimuluswatch.org/
It lists every project in the "stimulus". Check it out and vote fro your favorites.

Offline TRX

  • Governor
  • ***********
  • Posts: 3837
  • Gender: Male
  • It only makes me laugh
    • http://www.lp.org
Re: So how much is this "stimulus" plan going to cost us?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2009, 04:56:08 PM »
This site is too good to be true:
http://stimuluswatch.org/

8-)

Thank you very much for that. I think it is very helpful to see a private initiative looking at where or if the money would be invested.

I would like to follow the details of how much goes towards tax cuts, what kind, and when. Most reports note about $20 a month 'tax cut' per person starting around June. Then how much goes towards actual investments? Most of the spending is probably better than the Iraq expenses.
And then how much is for grants for states or cities to cover other govt. programs? There, it seems to be a question whether taxes would be increased at the federal or more local levels. Though there merits many spending cuts.

You may know from my perpsective that these spending programs form a plan to rob more (or tax) from some neighbors for the possible benefit of a few or many. I do not support that.

Remember too that Keynes said you could spend your way to recovery just by digging and filling holes. If so, would rather spend as least as possible.

But truth be told, I would voluntarily pay a little more in taxes for some of the programs, but not the legislation as proposed. They should make many improvements before voting.

There is likely to be quite a bit of heat on both sides of the plan.
Life, Liberty, Happiness (pursuit of) and pasta

Offline TRX

  • Governor
  • ***********
  • Posts: 3837
  • Gender: Male
  • It only makes me laugh
    • http://www.lp.org
Re: So how much is this "stimulus" plan going to cost us?
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2009, 05:42:00 PM »
This is a bit of tangent, with a slant on the economy, but sounds like a reasonable slant to me.


http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2009/02/worse-before-it-gets-better.html

 :cry:   :cry:

Quote

"...I've been a professional economist for 25 years and I've never seen anything like it. It's incredible to witness."

Across the nation, there's just one metro area that's doing well...Bismarck, ND.

And the one area of growth in the nation's economy? You guessed it. Government.

Zandi (who made a point of saying he's a registered Democrat despite his stint with McCain; he has been wrongly tagged as a "conservative Republican") is a big promoter of the stimulus package, which he called "a reasonably efficacious piece of legislation."

Given his druthers, it would actually be a lot bigger and include more tax cuts because, according to Zandi, the effects of getting money into the hands of people who could use it would be more immediately felt than spending on infrastructure.

If the government acts the way it should, Zandi predicted Americans will be feeling a lot better by 2011. The recession will end this year (in 2009), he said, but things won't actually feel like they're improving for quite some time.


Life, Liberty, Happiness (pursuit of) and pasta

Offline casicua

  • Senator
  • ********
  • Posts: 1193
  • Gender: Male
Re: So how much is this "stimulus" plan going to cost us?
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2009, 10:19:07 AM »
This site is too good to be true:
http://stimuluswatch.org/
It lists every project in the "stimulus". Check it out and vote fro your favorites.

I wouldn't get too caught up on this site, the first paragraph on the main page of this website says: "These projects are not part of the stimulus bill. They are candidates for funding by federal grant programs once the bill passes."
Granted, if I saw the bill, and the aforementioned list were actually on there, I would not be a happy camper.

Offline TRX

  • Governor
  • ***********
  • Posts: 3837
  • Gender: Male
  • It only makes me laugh
    • http://www.lp.org
recovery / gov Re: So how much is this "stimulus" plan going to cost us?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2009, 12:21:38 PM »
Yes, it is a work in progress. Maybe the tax cut side will be improved before all is said and done.
Recent estimates were that 80% of the package, if passed, would be in effect by end of 2010.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.1 :

For some of the early work and proposals.

Then eventually (hopefully?)

http://www.recovery.gov/
Life, Liberty, Happiness (pursuit of) and pasta

Offline TRX

  • Governor
  • ***********
  • Posts: 3837
  • Gender: Male
  • It only makes me laugh
    • http://www.lp.org
Re: So how much is this "stimulus" plan going to cost us?
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2009, 05:35:41 PM »
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/02/10/1789505.aspx

Six Points of Contention

 - a small but slightly interesting note on the stimulus negotiations between Senate and House, Dems and ?

**
And what makes Repubs from Maine different than those across the country, hmm.
Life, Liberty, Happiness (pursuit of) and pasta

Offline PJ

  • Senator
  • ********
  • Posts: 1640
  • Gender: Male
  • AQ420 Team
Re: So how much is this "stimulus" plan going to cost us?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2009, 11:40:45 AM »
This site is too good to be true:
http://stimuluswatch.org/
It lists every project in the "stimulus". Check it out and vote fro your favorites.

"Purchase of Tasers" WILL SAVE THE ECONOMY!!!!!!
Astoria.....\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"A Shady Place For Shady People"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\......So LOVE it OR LEAVE IT !!!!

Offline NYCMacUser

  • President
  • **************
  • Posts: 8297
  • Gender: Female
  • Bippidi Boppidi Boo!
Re: So how much is this "stimulus" plan going to cost us?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2009, 02:13:22 PM »
There is another pending legislation that has just been added to the stimulus package!

The Americans With No Abilities Act

Washington, DC—Congress is considering sweeping legislation that will provide new benefits for many Americans: The Americans With No Abilities Act.

(AWNAA) is being hailed as a major legislative goal by advocates of the millions of Americans who lack any real skills or ambition.

"Roughly 50 percent of Americans do not possess the competence and drive necessary to carve out a meaningful role for themselves in society," said California Senator Barbara Boxer. "We can no longer stand by and allow People of Inability to be ridiculed and passed over. With this legislation, employers will no longer be able to grant special favors to a small group of workers, simply because they have some idea of what they are doing."

In a Capitol Hill press conference, House Majority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D) and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D) pointed to the success of the U.S. Postal Service, which has a long-standing policy of providing opportunity without regard to performance. Approximately 74 percent of postal employees lack any job skills, making this agency the single largest U.S. employer of Persons of Inability.

Private-sector industries with good records of non-discrimination against the Inept include retail sales (72%), the limo industry (68%), and home improvement 'warehouse' stores (65%). At the state government level, the Department of Motor Vehicles also has an excellent record of hiring Persons of Inability (a whopping 83%).

Under The Americans With No Abilities Act, more than 25 million "middle man" positions will be created, with important-sounding titles but little real responsibility, thus providing an illusory sense of purpose and performance.

Mandatory non-performance-based raises and promotions will be given so as to guarantee upward mobility for even the most inept employees.  The legislation provides substantial tax breaks to corporations that promote a significant number of Persons of Inability into middle-management positions, and gives a tax credit to small and medium-sized businesses that agree to hire one clueless worker for every two talented hires.

Finally, the AWNAA contains tough new measures to make it more difficult to discriminate against the non-abled, banning, for example, discriminatory interview questions such as, "Do you have any skills or experience that relate to this job?"

"As a non-abled person, I can't be expected to keep up with people who have something going for them," said Mary Lou Greason, who lost her position as a lug-nut twister at the GM plant in Flint, Michigan, due to her inability to remember 'rightey tightey, lefty loosey.' "This new law should be real good for people like me,' Greason added. With the passage of this bill, Greason and millions of other untalented citizens will finally see a light at the end of the tunnel.

Said Senator Dick Durbin (D-IL): "As a Senator with no abilities, I believe the same privileges that elected officials enjoy ought to be extended to every American with no abilities. It is our duty as lawmakers to provide each and every American citizen, regardless of his or her inadequacy, with some sort of space to take up in this great nation and a good salary for doing so."

Women are like teabags.
We don't know our true strength
until we are in hot water! —Eleanor Roosevelt

Offline kempsternyc

  • Senator
  • ********
  • Posts: 1599
  • Gender: Male
  • Me in a bowler hat and nowhere to go.
Re: So how much is this "stimulus" plan going to cost us?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2009, 01:46:05 AM »
There is another pending legislation that has just been added to the stimulus package!

The Americans With No Abilities Act




That would describe the last eight years of the Bush administration........LOL

I must admit that I am amused at the gall of a conservative ...not you, the OP, asking how much the current package will cost us......when his party, I am assuming here,.....but haven't seen anything to dissuade that assumption, when the GOP just ended an era hoe how many trillions in deficits.

So I must ask from those that oppose the package.

Did you oppose the budget breaking tax cuts of the Bush Era....and if not...why????????????????
I love talking about nothing father, it is the only thing I know anything about -

Lord Goring "An Ideal Husband"

Offline TRX

  • Governor
  • ***********
  • Posts: 3837
  • Gender: Male
  • It only makes me laugh
    • http://www.lp.org
NYC and economics Re: So how much is this "stimulus" plan going to cost us?
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2009, 11:16:28 AM »


Did you oppose the budget breaking tax cuts of the Bush Era....and if not...why???

I misread your note. But first, let me confess to not appreciating enough Gotham Gazette.
NYDN linked to this article and a fun informative game. (perfect for ADD satisfaction)

http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/issueoftheweek/20090209/200/2822

Play balance the NYC budget. Look at spending proposals, make adjustments, and see the reactions.
Also there are revenue proposals.
My version gets citizens riled up with a number of spending cuts, but fewer cuts than I would want. And very few revenue increases, with net end reductions.

***
Your question was for the OP. But it was not tax cuts that disturbed me, it was the increased spending and deficit spending that were outrageous. Govt grows and grows too often outpacing economic realities.

I think it is a more interesting question of whether the tax cuts were targeted fairly or towards sustained economic growth.

Life, Liberty, Happiness (pursuit of) and pasta


 

Visit our sister site Jackson Heights Life