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Author Topic: Nope, No, Communists In Hollywood...  (Read 5744 times)

Offline RedSoxfanNYC

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Re: Nope, No, Communists In Hollywood...
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2008, 12:32:47 PM »
Right.  So in review, capitalism as we understand it is magical thinking.  And a classless society is a perfectly good idea, marred only by certain "methodologies."

What a maroon.  As I understand it, Hitler's Germany was a nice place to live, too, by what I imagine to be Soderbergh's standards.  Gun control, ample soup kitchens for the poor, patronage of the arts.  If only their methodology hadn't been so debatable.
I'd say capitalism has been fanciful if not magical thinking, as we have seen through recent economic activities. It appears that we are socializing our way "out" of these problems as well.

I guess if we are taking stabs at methodology we should sweep "organized religion" under the rug before it is too late!

Offline Billz1981

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Re: Nope, No, Communists In Hollywood...
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2008, 02:42:04 PM »
I'd say capitalism has been fanciful if not magical thinking, as we have seen through recent economic activities. It appears that we are socializing our way "out" of these problems as well.

I guess if we are taking stabs at methodology we should sweep "organized religion" under the rug before it is too late!

Wait, you're literally positing that communism could be a good idea?  I just want to be sure I have that straight.

Offline RedSoxfanNYC

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Re: Nope, No, Communists In Hollywood...
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2008, 03:08:15 PM »
Wait, you're literally positing that communism could be a good idea?  I just want to be sure I have that straight.
I see nothing wrong with the ideology. Am I supposed to?  :-(

Offline Sweeper

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Re: Nope, No, Communists In Hollywood...
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2008, 03:15:51 PM »
I see nothing wrong with the ideology. Am I supposed to?  :-(

I would think so..

Offline Billz1981

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Re: Nope, No, Communists In Hollywood...
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2008, 04:11:04 PM »
I would think so..

I don't even know where to begin as to what is wrong with communism.  It's disturbing to me that I should even have to verbalize it.  I guess if human nature did not exist, communist ideology could flourish as the cornerstone of some utopian fantasy world.  But everywhere an attempt at communist government has been made, it has resulted in death, starvation, or at best, inept governance and lack of societal progress. 

Plus, any person who places value on the rights of the individual should have a problem with such a collectivist mentality.  You cannot have a fond place in your heart for America and be in favor of communism.  I mean that because the philosophies are radically incompatible, not because I am having a visceral conservative reaction.

Also, capitalism has worked for hundreds of years.  Whereas communism has functioned successfully in such places as...?  Sure, there are some hiccups to capitalism, as with the current crisis, but people need to learn the difference between a failure of capitalism and a failure of the market.

Thanks to Sweeper for being the one person here to defend American values, common sense, free choice, etc.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 04:18:48 PM by Billz1981 »

Offline RedSoxfanNYC

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Re: Nope, No, Communists In Hollywood...
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2008, 04:31:47 PM »
I don't even know where to begin as to what is wrong with communism.  It's disturbing to me that I should even have to verbalize it.  I guess if human nature did not exist, communist ideology could flourish as the cornerstone of some utopian fantasy world.  But everywhere an attempt at communist government has been made, it has resulted in death, starvation, or at best, inept governance and lack of societal progress. 

Plus, any individual who places value on the rights of the individual should have a problem with such a collectivist mentality.  You cannot have a fond place in your heart for America and be in favor of communism.  I mean that because the philosophise are radically incompatible, not because I am having a visceral conservative reaction.

Also, capitalism has worked for hundreds of years.  Whereas communism has functioned successfully in such places as...?  Sure, there are some hiccups to capitalism, as with the current crisis, but people need to learn the difference between a failure of capitalism and a failure of the market.

Thanks to Sweeper for being the one person here to defend American values, common sense, free choice, etc.

First of all, My post a few points back talks about the ideology, which you seem to pretty much let blow by and instead focus on past implementations, something I thought was pretty clear as being a seperate talking point. Having said that I'll requote some of your stuff so I can address specific points.

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I guess if human nature did not exist, communist ideology could flourish as the cornerstone of some utopian fantasy world.
It is rather odd that you mention this as an attack on communism, as I tend to think it only stregthens the point of a more socialistic, collective society. Human nature certainly has done a number through on democracy and capitalism. Just open the paper, even detritus such as the Post should have plenty of evidence.

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Plus, any individual who places value on the rights of the individual should have a problem with such a collectivist mentality.  You cannot have a fond place in your heart for America and be in favor of communism.  I mean that because the philosophise are radically incompatible, not because I am having a visceral conservative reaction.
The preamble for the constitution states "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America"

Lots of words pop up in there to me. "We the people", "union", "common defense". These words sound like they speak of a collective, you know like people together or some other commie nonsense.

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Thanks to Sweeper for being the one person here to defend American values, common sense, free choice, etc.
PLEASE! Exactly what was he defending?

Offline Billz1981

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Re: Nope, No, Communists In Hollywood...
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2008, 04:47:41 PM »
First of all, My post a few points back talks about the ideology, which you seem to pretty much let blow by and instead focus on past implementations, something I thought was pretty clear as being a seperate talking point. Having said that I'll requote some of your stuff so I can address specific points.
 It is rather odd that you mention this as an attack on communism, as I tend to think it only stregthens the point of a more socialistic, collective society. Human nature certainly has done a number through on democracy and capitalism. Just open the paper, even detritus such as the Post should have plenty of evidence.
The preamble for the constitution states "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America"

Lots of words pop up in there to me. "We the people", "union", "common defense". These words sound like they speak of a collective, you know like people together or some other commie nonsense.
 PLEASE! Exactly what was he defending?

I will give you that communism, as an ideology, makes for an interesting thought exercise.  Like what you do in sophomore year of college when you stay up late and bake brownies and talk about how you're spiritual, but not religious and stuff.  I shouldn't be that dismissive, as it really is an interesting ideology, but it's best avoided in implementation.  It just doesn't work.  Any examples of socialistic programs working (or arguably working) involve developed, free societies which are capitalistic.  Do you think without profit motive, we would have made most of the advances we have made as a society?

As far as the constitution, most if not all of what you cite was meant to establish a groundwork so that people could otherwise be unencumbered in their affairs.  "I can't defend my property alone, so I'll pay you to do it."  NOT "I will surrender my property to you, as the collective needs it more."

As for Sweeper, he was questioning the folly that is communism.  I must say that you can never accuse communists of being weak.  Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Che.  Those guys had resolve.

Offline Debbie

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Re: Nope, No, Communists In Hollywood...
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2008, 05:57:17 PM »
What I do not understand is why some folks are so frightened by the concept of 'Communism', even when we discuss it as an ideology.  Folks, Communism is not a threat to the U.S. and probably never was.  We should be able to discuss it just as we do other topics, without getting so paranoid. 

Offline Sweeper

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Re: Nope, No, Communists In Hollywood...
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2008, 07:49:03 PM »
What I do not understand is why some folks are so frightened by the concept of 'Communism', even when we discuss it as an ideology.  Folks, Communism is not a threat to the U.S. and probably never was.  We should be able to discuss it just as we do other topics, without getting so paranoid. 
Who here has shown a fear of Communism? Treating a philosophy with the disdain it deserves is not fear. FZ makes the point often about Communism in liberal elite circle such as entertainment and media. The point he made about this particular movie was then strengthened by the the historical ignorance of Steven Soderbergh (double entendre intended).
The core of Communism is simple: Shut up and listen to your betters. I am not real good at that. Ergo I would suffer greatly.

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First of all, My post a few points back talks about the ideology, which you seem to pretty much let blow by and instead focus on past implementations, something I thought was pretty clear as being a separate talking point. Having said that I'll requote some of your stuff so I can address specific points.

You are free to live any ideology you choose. There are many living in communes right here in the US. It's when you attempt to "make" others live by that ideology where there is going to be conflict.
BillZ makes a very clear point about Communism: It Doesn't Work. More people have been murdered proving this point than have died for any other ideology. If you can figure out a way to turn humans into ants without murdering the undesirables (such as myself) I would love to hear it.

Offline casicua

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Re: Nope, No, Communists In Hollywood...
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2008, 09:19:21 AM »
I love the recurring sentiment of, "America's freedom and values... but you are not free to believe in your communism values." It really annoys me how dismissive and condescending people are of the word communism, when evidently, only half of those people even know what it means.
I don't think Communists (At least here) are trying to force anything upon anyone, at least no moreso than the Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, etc.

I think it's a great idea, unfortunately one that requires total agreement and participation of all people involved- which, as human nature has proved time and again, will most likely never happen on a large scale. I think that if it could legitimately be executed, it might be cool to live under the "Give what you can, take what you need" philosophy (Not "Shut up and listen", as some folks have incorrectly stated)

It's a matter of degree- pure capitalism can't ever really work, and our current system of government has some socialistic aspects to it as well, which I think work. Laissez-faire capitalism in American history has not exactly shown to be successful as well.

Offline Billz1981

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Re: Nope, No, Communists In Hollywood...
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2008, 09:24:35 AM »
What I do not understand is why some folks are so frightened by the concept of 'Communism', even when we discuss it as an ideology.  Folks, Communism is not a threat to the U.S. and probably never was.  We should be able to discuss it just as we do other topics, without getting so paranoid. 

It's not a fear, so much as contempt, as Sweeper said above.  I don't think that anyone is paranoid of communism, in the sense that they believe that we are about to be overtaken by communists.  Or at least most people don't believe we're about to be overtaken by communists.

But the statement that communism was never a threat to the U.S. is simply inaccurate.  What about the Cuban Missile Crisis?  Other escalations of the Cold War?  Soviet spies in the U.S.?  What about the treatment of citizens under communist regimes?  Even though those people weren't "ours," aren't we supposed to care about the treatment of others as Americans?  Isn't any threat to freedom a threat to what we believe in.

Every once in a while, someone will bring up the idea of communism as though it is something we should take a serious look at.  Someone, usually from the elite, like Soderbergh.  The reason that communism is not a threat to the U.S. today is because people loudly and roundly protest that idea.  

There is nothing wrong with discussing communism as an ideology, just as there is nothing wrong with discussing Nazism or any other controversial topic.  But we must recognize that both communism and Nazism are bloody ideologies with a legacy of failure.

Offline Sweeper

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Re: Nope, No, Communists In Hollywood...
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2008, 09:54:05 AM »
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It's a matter of degree- pure capitalism can't ever really work, and our current system of government has some socialistic aspects to it as well, which I think work. Laissez-faire capitalism in American history has not exactly shown to be successful as well.

Where exactly has pure capitalism been tried? And I would argue that those socialistic aspects ,that you are fond of, is only made possible by free citizens pursuing that which they desire. Which of course makes those socialistic aspects somewhat of a drain on the economy as a whole.

I agree with you that it is a matter of degree. But let's not confuse socialism with communism. And keep in mind the Soderbergh quote that we are referencing:
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Che’s dream of a classless society, a society that isn’t built on the profit motive, is still relevant. The arguments still going on are about his methodology.

Soderbergh has more material wealth than most people can even dream of, yet decries the "profit motive" that made that wealth possible. And I would be real interested to see what he feels is a "profit motive". Because it is apparent to me that without that motive, nothing gets built, nothing gets done, and all of us are back on the Serengeti hunting for our food.
One other thing, as I stated before, you are free to live as a Communist or a Socialist (isn't that what the Quakers do?) in a free society. But try living as a Capitalist in a Communist society. The freedom alone should be enough to convince everyone which ideal is superior.


Offline johnny4evah!

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Re: Nope, No, Communists In Hollywood...
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2008, 10:42:59 AM »
Soderbergh would fit in quite well in a Communist regime-even with all the money. He would be a great propagandist. All the apparatchiks are wealthier than the poor working-class schlubs.
America may not be perfect but...I like living in a society in which I can express my opinions without worrying whether it's in line with official policy. Right now I don't have to worry about neighbors, friends or even family turning me in to the authorities for spreading subversive, treasonous lies about the utopia we would be living in. I have no fear of re-education camps or gulags. I like being able to go to the church (not the government sanctioned one) of my choice. I like having the freedom to convert to any religion of my choosing because none are outlawed. Religion (the opium of the masses) is not yet a threat to the State religion of Atheism. I even like the fact that if I decided to move to a different country I could do so. I don't have the government refusing to allow me to leave because my profession is too valuable for the well-being of the State. You think politicians are corrupt now? Wait until there is only a one party system. You dissent-you die. You get labeled as a "refusenik". You as well as your family are discriminated against and your life is made miserable. I am "not very fond of" communism because the only thing we have after every thing else is taken away is freedom of choice, and that's the only way communism has ever existed. It simply isn't natural. I'm getting off my soap-box now and thanking the Lord we are not at the point in our history where I would get a knock on the door in the middle of the night for expressing these views. I fear the further away we drift from the 20th Century the closer we get to a (quasi)Communist regime in America. I hope you're right Debbie! I hope I'm just paranoid!

Offline SpecialK

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Re: Nope, No, Communists In Hollywood...
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2008, 03:40:20 PM »
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Socialist (isn't that what the Quakers do?)

 :-D  No.

Offline RedSoxfanNYC

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Re: Nope, No, Communists In Hollywood...
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2008, 04:31:50 PM »
Do you think without profit motive, we would have made most of the advances we have made as a society?
I think it is entirely possible. I suppose it depends on all the ingredients involved.

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As far as the constitution, most if not all of what you cite was meant to establish a groundwork so that people could otherwise be unencumbered in their affairs.  "I can't defend my property alone, so I'll pay you to do it."  NOT "I will surrender my property to you, as the collective needs it more."
I may be off on my history but I would think that the founding fathers were less concerned about a bunch of people binding together and taking land for the collective need and more concerned about ending up as serfs working someone else's land.



 

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