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Author Topic: Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times  (Read 4212 times)

Offline Billz1981

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Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times
« on: November 24, 2008, 09:43:14 AM »
I know that everyone here is psyched about the coming Obama administration.  But I would like to see what you guys think about what Gail Collins proposes in her latest column: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/22/opinion/22collins.html

My assumption is that although most of you can't wait for Obama to take the reigns, you will have the same problems with her idea as I do.  Perhaps she has never heard of an inconvenient little thing called the Constitution?  I think maybe Gail Collins wrote this piece in the company of Tom Collins.

Offline Sweeper

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Re: Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2008, 09:54:08 AM »
Symptomatic of the "I want it and I want it NOW" culture that our nation is sliding into. (into which our nation is sliding?)

Offline daisy

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Re: Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2008, 09:57:23 AM »
I read it, and I didn't take it seriously at all.  I found humor in it, and don't know why anyone would take it seriously.  I don't think you have anything to worry about.  Obama has made it very clear we still have a president.

Offline Billz1981

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Re: Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2008, 10:00:07 AM »
Symptomatic of the "I want it and I want it NOW" culture that our nation is sliding into. (into which our nation is sliding?)

Yep.  Instant gratification.  Her writing also stems from the somewhat naive hope that someone else being in charge will instantly fix our troubled economy.  No matter who is in the big chair, the economy is complicated.  No one has a magic bullet.

Offline Billz1981

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Re: Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2008, 10:03:10 AM »
I read it, and I didn't take it seriously at all.  I found humor in it, and don't know why anyone would take it seriously.  I don't think you have anything to worry about.  Obama has made it very clear we still have a president.

I'm not taking her seriously, as she is a columnist, not someone of actual importance.  I'm just pointing out how objectively stupid she is.

It's also disturbing how many people do take her seriously.  Check out the over 450 comments posted to her piece.

Offline Astoria Luv

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Re: Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2008, 10:13:13 AM »
I don't know why people would read the column, literally.  For whatever you might think of her, Gail Collins is in the Opinion section of the NY Times and that piece, as well as the link below is more of an attempt at humor then a serious debate. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/08/opinion/08collins.html

I have no doubt that the Times writers and editor lean to the Left, but I didn't hear anyone on the Right complain about their objectivity with the Judith Miller debacle http://articles.latimes.com/2005/oct/18/nation/na-nyt18.  You might recall that all of those so-called liberal newspapers, e.g. Post, were involved and journalists even went to jail. 


Offline daisy

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Re: Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2008, 10:18:21 AM »
Obama has made it very clear Bush is still our president.  He's also made it very clear that he knows there is no easy fix and it will be long and hard.  And that he will make mistakes.  He's said so a number of times publicly.  The challenges he faces are enormous and I am happy he's honest, and hard at work assembling a cabinet and plan of action so that he can hit the ground running.  

As for Gail, I don't know who she is, and yeah, her column was very stupid.  I did look at some of the comments and not all take her seriously.   I think we're pretty much in agreement.

Offline Billz1981

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Re: Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2008, 10:20:09 AM »
I don't know why people would read the column, literally.  For whatever you might think of her, Gail Collins is in the Opinion section of the NY Times and that piece, as well as the link below is more of an attempt at humor then a serious debate. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/08/opinion/08collins.html

I have no doubt that the Times writers and editor lean to the Left, but I didn't hear anyone on the Right complain about their objectivity with the Judith Miller debacle http://articles.latimes.com/2005/oct/18/nation/na-nyt18.  You might recall that all of those so-called liberal newspapers, e.g. Post, were involved and journalists even went to jail. 



Haha, did you mean "I don't know why anyone would read her column literally"?  Or "I literally have no idea why someone would read her column?"

Offline Astoria Luv

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Re: Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2008, 10:24:19 AM »
Haha, did you mean "I don't know why anyone would read her column literally"?  Or "I literally have no idea why someone would read her column?"

Good one  :-D  I should really read what I post!

Offline Billz1981

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Re: Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2008, 10:39:48 AM »
Good one  :-D  I should really read what I post!

Haha, I figured you probably meant the first version  :-).  Anyhow, I do get the difference between the opinion section and the news side.  I just wanted to spark discussion.  It is interesting (and sad) that so many people apparently did read her literally.  At least based on the comments.  Of course, the internets are dumb.

It will be interesting in the coming months to see how hope, change, and the "yes we can" spirit translate as policy initiatives.  I must say, I am heartened somewhat by Obama's staff picks, as concerns the economy.  Bringing Larry Summers back in is about the best thing we could possibly hope for, and the other names that have been released are solid, mainstream choices.  I don't even mind the idea of Senator Clinton in the State Department role.  So far it looks like he is going to govern from the center-left, rather than from the left.  I hear some of the lefty bloggers are taking the attitude that this isn't the change they had hoped for, but they can take a hike.

Offline 28Grand

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Re: Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2008, 10:56:31 AM »
I'm not a fan of Collins's opinion pieces but she's not the only person wishing for a hastened end to the Bush era. Tom Friedman essentially made the same point in his last op-ed column:

www.nytimes.com/2008/11/23/opinion/23friedman.html?em


Offline Billz1981

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Re: Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2008, 11:01:56 AM »
...but she's not the only person wishing for a hastened end to the Bush era.

Understatement of the year.


Offline mcdirk

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Re: Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2008, 11:14:32 AM »
I never really enjoy Gail Collins these days, I used to really enjoy her work, but the past few years it's left me lacking.

Tom Friedman, Bob Herbert and Frank Rich, however, they're columnists and brilliant, at least in my opinion.

Offline paratactical

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Re: Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2008, 07:13:39 PM »
I'm not taking her seriously, as she is a columnist, not someone of actual importance.  I'm just pointing out how objectively stupid she is.

It's also disturbing how many people do take her seriously.  Check out the over 450 comments posted to her piece.

There were also 60+ pages of message board threads last week while people watched a kid commit suicide live online and didn't do anything about it.

Don't let Internet Tough Guys or Internet Independents think that people *actually* feel that way.

Offline FZ

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Re: Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2008, 01:01:44 PM »
I know that everyone here is psyched about the coming Obama administration.  But I would like to see what you guys think about what Gail Collins proposes in her latest column: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/22/opinion/22collins.html

My assumption is that although most of you can't wait for Obama to take the reigns, you will have the same problems with her idea as I do.  Perhaps she has never heard of an inconvenient little thing called the Constitution?  I think maybe Gail Collins wrote this piece in the company of Tom Collins.

I don't think it's outrageous for the New York Times, it's business  as usual.  :wink:  Of course these were the same  people  crying rivers  of tears for the Gitmo and Abu Ghraib terrorists, and for 8 years  denying Bush won in 2000, so why be surprised they want Bush out early, it wasn't 'their' President?  I didn't vote  for Obama, and will never, ever, vote for any democrat  as long as I live, and I'm not too sure of  the republicans, but,  he is  MY President, I hope he succeeds and I hope he  can get the bad guys  and  the economy gets  better  and I'm wrong about him. HappyThanksgiving. :-)

Offline enigmacat

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Re: Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2008, 02:14:51 PM »
It is interesting (and sad) that so many people apparently did read her literally. 

*cough*RushLimbaugh*cough*

Offline edhopper

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Re: Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2008, 04:56:41 PM »
I don't think it's outrageous for the New York Times, it's business  as usual.  :wink:  Of course these were the same  people  crying rivers  of tears for the Gitmo and Abu Ghraib terrorists, and for 8 years  denying Bush won in 2000, so why be surprised they want Bush out early, it wasn't 'their' President?  I didn't vote  for Obama, and will never, ever, vote for any democrat  as long as I live, and I'm not too sure of  the republicans, but,  he is  MY President, I hope he succeeds and I hope he  can get the bad guys  and  the economy gets  better  and I'm wrong about him. HappyThanksgiving. :-)

Uh...Bush lost the vote in 2000. He lost the national vote and he lost the vote in Florida. How dare the NY Times report the facts. Truly, truly outrageous.

Offline Sweeper

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Re: Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2008, 05:23:22 PM »
Uh...Bush lost the vote in 2000. He lost the national vote and he lost the vote in Florida. How dare the NY Times report the facts. Truly, truly outrageous.

I don't know why it keeps cropping up, but George Bush did not lose Florida.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/12/politics/12VOTE.html?ex=1228280400&en=35500fee0e46a164&ei=5070
Poorly made HBO specials aside, it is a highly damaging assertion that the election was not fair.

Offline Billz1981

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Re: Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2008, 05:50:03 PM »
I don't know why it keeps cropping up, but George Bush did not lose Florida.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/12/politics/12VOTE.html?ex=1228280400&en=35500fee0e46a164&ei=5070
Poorly made HBO specials aside, it is a highly damaging assertion that the election was not fair.

Aw, crap, I only have on thumb up to give you.

Offline edhopper

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Re: Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2008, 07:22:45 PM »
I don't know why it keeps cropping up, but George Bush did not lose Florida.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/12/politics/12VOTE.html?ex=1228280400&en=35500fee0e46a164&ei=5070
Poorly made HBO specials aside, it is a highly damaging assertion that the election was not fair.
Yeah right:
"But the consortium, looking at a broader group of rejected ballots than those covered in the court decisions, 175,010 in all, found that Mr. Gore might have won if the courts had ordered a full statewide recount of all the rejected ballots."
Only by not counting all the votes does Bush win.
From the University of Chicago which undertook the media recount.
Candidate Outcomes Based on Potential Recounts in Florida Presidential Election 2000
(outcome of one particular study)
Review Method    Winner
Review of All Ballots Statewide    
•     Standard as set by each county Canvassing Board during their survey    Gore by 171
•     Fully punched chads and limited marks on optical ballots    Gore by 115
•     Any dimples or optical mark    Gore by 107
•     One corner of chad detached or optical mark    Gore by 60
Review of Limited Sets of Ballots (initiated but not completed)    
•     Gore request for recounts of all ballots in Broward, Miami-Dade, Palm Beach, and Volusia counties    Bush by 225
•     Florida Supreme Court of all undervotes statewide    Bush by 430
•     Florida Supreme Court as being implemented by the counties, some of whom refused and some counted overvotes as well as undervotes    Bush by 493
Unofficial recount totals    
•     Incomplete result when the Supreme Court stayed the recount (December 9, 2000)    Bush by 154
Certified Result (official final count)    
•     Recounts included from Volusia and Broward only    Bush by 537
And he still lost the national election by half a million votes.
But, I'm sure your happy with the way the country has turned out under Bush.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 07:30:33 PM by edhopper »

Offline Sweeper

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Re: Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2008, 07:54:39 PM »
Yeah right:
"But the consortium, looking at a broader group of rejected ballots than those covered in the court decisions, 175,010 in all, found that Mr. Gore might have won if the courts had ordered a full statewide recount of all the rejected ballots."
Only by not counting all the votes does Bush win.
From the University of Chicago which undertook the media recount.
Candidate Outcomes Based on Potential Recounts in Florida Presidential Election 2000
(outcome of one particular study)
Review Method    Winner
Review of All Ballots Statewide    
•     Standard as set by each county Canvassing Board during their survey    Gore by 171
•     Fully punched chads and limited marks on optical ballots    Gore by 115
•     Any dimples or optical mark    Gore by 107
•     One corner of chad detached or optical mark    Gore by 60
Review of Limited Sets of Ballots (initiated but not completed)    
•     Gore request for recounts of all ballots in Broward, Miami-Dade, Palm Beach, and Volusia counties    Bush by 225
•     Florida Supreme Court of all undervotes statewide    Bush by 430
•     Florida Supreme Court as being implemented by the counties, some of whom refused and some counted overvotes as well as undervotes    Bush by 493
Unofficial recount totals    
•     Incomplete result when the Supreme Court stayed the recount (December 9, 2000)    Bush by 154
Certified Result (official final count)    
•     Recounts included from Volusia and Broward only    Bush by 537
And he still lost the national election by half a million votes.
But, I'm sure your happy with the way the country has turned out under Bush.

I don't think anyone wants to go through this again, but those numbers are not based on what the laws were on election day 2000. They depend upon someone, other than voter, determining the intent of the voter. The facts are clear. Bush had more votes than Gore in Florida as the laws of Florida were written. As for the popular vote, it is wholly irrelevent. You may wish the laws were different. You may even petition your representative to change the law. Hell, you may even run for congress someday and start a drive to change the constitution. But as it stands, Al gore lost. All the rejected ballots in the world won't change that.

Offline Billz1981

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Re: Outrageous Gail Collins Column in NY Times
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2008, 01:44:47 PM »
But, I'm sure your happy with the way the country has turned out under Bush.

That's not the issue at question.


 

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