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Author Topic: Body Of War  (Read 7173 times)

Offline FZ

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Re: Body Of War
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2008, 12:39:04 AM »
But that's the point I'm trying to make, if we're talking in terms of stating "hey this is reality because this is a fact", that's fine, prove it.
I think that implying that people who have a left-leaning political views are terrorist supporters and/or hate the American soldiers is pretty mean-spirited.
Agreed. I mis-responded.
My original response on this matter was in response to something stating that these movies portray the soldiers as Murderers and dummies. I still don't think there are any I know of that make the soldiers out as the bad guys. I feel like if anything, those films are portraying the government as the ones mishandling the soldiers, and the soldiers are portrayed as victims and heroes.

You want 'mean spirited' read the Daily Kos  or Huffington. There is  no doubt, many far leftists, not 'left-leaning'  folks, do support the terrorists. There are far-right  Neo-Nazi people as well, but, they don't have the respectibility  that many on the far  left get in media.

The problem with movie and documentary showing this  war as  victims of  murderers by focusing on one incident or two, and refusing to see the reality of the enemy, is helping and being used  by he enemy, whatever the intent. The proof is  that  over two dozen large budget movies  have been made and they are all negative. I mean even if you oppose the Iraq side of  the war, at least  the Afghanistan side can be depicted, just once.

Offline FZ

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Re: Body Of War
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2008, 12:54:23 AM »
Actually, these movies are being shown to illustrate the horrors of war, thereby making people think about the true consequences and fallout of sending their honorable defenders out to war.
There is enough pro-war fiction coming out of the government, so I think the great number of anti-war films balance it out. The difference is that the government controls the information it puts out, but anyone is free to make a film.

Of course movies about war are negative, there is nothing glorious or romantic about the act of war. It's a terrible, vile and sad thing that should be a last resort when all other options have been exhausted. That is the reality YOU need to face.

Not true, every interview  I have read about these  movies and who makes them is that they  oppose  the war , even some go as far ascalling the Islamic terrorists as 'victims.' The victims  are usually other  Muslims, in those countries and the story  of the milions  who do support the removal of  Saddam and the Taliban and who want to live in relative  peace, just like any other  person, is not being told at all.

Peace at any cost  is  not peace, and usually  leads  to a more tragic  wider war. When you appease  and trade  with a Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Saddam, or even a tin horn dictator, it usually ends in a bigger tragedy. For decades  we did not have good enough intelligence  for many reasons, cutting back on CIA/Defense spending, which seemed logical , after the Soviets  fell.  Saddam continued  to bluff, as it turned out, but, if we did nothing after 9/11 to Saddam and he  was sanctionless, and arming  more terrorists top get our troops, we could be just as bogged  down in  Afghan and worse  cause Saddam was still there  and laughing as he was killing us.

I think we get  bogged  down sometimes, I do it too, on who is right or correct. The truth is  removing Saddam was correct, removing the Taliban was correct. For over decade everyone in the world wanted it done, then, when The US/UK and a few other nations do it, they get crucified. I think it's worng, especially, when all the bood that is being shed.  Saddam didn't  pay for  trips  like  this cause  he  wanted to be friends, he wanted to be sanctionless  to get  us after 9/11, he had murals  depicting himself as Xerxes, with  the planes  flying into the WTC, in his palace, that our troops found when they came in. Iran doesn't want an example  of  free people next door. I hate to see us, Americans, sniping at each other.

Offline casicua

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Re: Body Of War
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2008, 04:02:46 AM »
^ I haven't seen a speck of actual validation to the claims in the last two posts. It's "Oh, I've seen this" or, "Well the fact is that", without a single shred of proof to back any of it up. All of it is speculation and hearsay, an accusation that lefties support terrorists, and not a single link or shred of evidence to support the stated "facts".

Just link me one article to the Kos or Huffington that "supports terrorists". I bet you can't.

Offline FZ

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Re: Body Of War
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2008, 05:22:20 PM »
^ I haven't seen a speck of actual validation to the claims in the last two posts. It's "Oh, I've seen this" or, "Well the fact is that", without a single shred of proof to back any of it up. All of it is speculation and hearsay, an accusation that lefties support terrorists, and not a single link or shred of evidence to support the stated "facts".

Just link me one article to the Kos or Huffington that "supports terrorists". I bet you can't.

 Facts  and links have  ben provided  in the past, most recently by someone , who disagreed with my position on the war, still, aknowledged  that there were polls  and stories  about US  being hated because  of the war. However, here is  a post from Daily Kos, link doesn't work anymore, but, this  was up for Sept, 19, 2007.... "This has been digging at me for, oh, about 4 years now. I have been hesitant to express this thought, in comments sections and in discussion with other people about the Iraq quagmire for fear of, I don’t know, being called mean. Or, un-American. Or something.

Supporting the troops essentially means supporting the illegal war. It seems that us anti-war types have been doing all sorts of mental and philisophical gymnastics to try and work around this. What has emerged is a sort of low impact, mealy-mouthed common wisdom that is palatable to everyone but is ultimately going to allow us to stay in Iraq for years to come.

Even Jim Webb’s shelved equal time legislation carries the scent of this erroneous wisdom.

Now, I don’t intend to demean Jim Webb. He is determined and impressive in his stance against the war and the crippling of our military. But this kind of legislation allows us to comfortably continue to support acts of aggression, as long as we give the troops a long enough break in between.

Until we have another draft, this is a volunteer armed services. I am not even beginning to count the numerous mercenaries that are involved in the occupation.  You signed up, you get to go to the desert and risk being shot at by brown skinned people who don’t believe the lies you’ve been told. A war of aggression is immoral, period. If you believe in God, you can damned well be sure you are going to hell for your participation in it. The only troop I support is the man or woman who refuses to be deployed so that they can make the middle east accessible to profiteers who don’t give a flying F about morality or democracy. Or a soldier’s life.

When Sunni tribes got paid off enough to stop shooting at GIs and instead shoot at Al-Qaeda (in reality themselves) it is funny how they suddenly became Freedom Fighters.  During WWII, French resistance fighters were also called terrorists and insurgents by their German occupiers. Can an anti-war proponent look at these Iraqi resistance fighters with the same admiration, even though they worship differently than us and when they eventually win are likely to install a distasteful (to Americans) theocratic tinged state. Can a person who doesn’t believe in violence support that people’s right to govern themselves, perhaps violently.

I am sorry but supporting the troops means supporting this illegal war....."

The Huffington Post and Daily Kos, two of the most popular 'left' sites out of  thousands like it, in print and media, routinely  call 'Hamas', and even Al Qeada, 'resistance' fighters, claiming  they are the equivalent  of the French Resistance to the Nazis, which the US troops  are  the Nazis. Of course, there have been Senators like Dick Durbin, who compared the  liberation fo Iraq from Saddam to the actions of Nazis, Soviets  and  Pol Pot...http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=13014  This was used by Al Jazeera, as has been the  some of the movies, like  'Redacted'  that took the incident of some troops, who were convicted, for raping a girl. Redacted was shown in theaters in Syria recently, this set off  a  mob after it's showing, to spill into streets and attack the US embassy/interest sections. Of course no women were allowed into  the theater. On and on. This is NOT 'Anti-War', this is 'Anti-American' and suicidal. The worldwide Al Qeada/Jihadist  movement  is  not just in Iraq  or Afghan. It's in Europe  and even our own City, you can see some of their work in what was once the WTC.

It's a shame that those who disagree with the current administration have to resort to supporting the enemy. If anything else, this undermines their entire argument. During the Cold War, Democrats and Republicans were able to disagree with each others on policy without losing sight that our common goal is to defeat Communism. A House divided cannot stand. If the West allows internal disagreement to overshadow our common goal of defeating totalitarian Islam, Western Civilisation will fall the same way as a divided China in the face of Japan during WW2.

Offline casicua

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Re: Body Of War
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2008, 11:54:22 PM »
That is incredibly convenient that you can't find a link to that article. Do you at least remember if it was an editorial letter or an actual article?

Secondly, everybody I know who dislikes the administration supports our troops. What I find incredibly pathetic is certain people who disagree with the those against the war have to resort to calling us terrorist supporters or troop haters. I love my country. I love the honorable warriors who defend us, give their lives for us and protect us. I dislike my current administration.

Offline FZ

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Re: Body Of War
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2008, 02:52:34 AM »
That is incredibly convenient that you can't find a link to that article. Do you at least remember if it was an editorial letter or an actual article?

Secondly, everybody I know who dislikes the administration supports our troops. What I find incredibly pathetic is certain people who disagree with the those against the war have to resort to calling us terrorist supporters or troop haters. I love my country. I love the honorable warriors who defend us, give their lives for us and protect us. I dislike my current administration.

I gave  you a link to one article and told you what date the other was posted, they removed  it, I can't help  it.

Second, I am sick of 'certain'  people  who  disagree with some of the leadership  of those  opposing this war of survival  for the nation, being labeled warmongers, nazis and worse. This is  not about you and me, the people  I  am pointing to are proven haters  of the way of life of this nation long before  Bush took power and this is  their latest ploy. Film after film depicting the troops as murderers, rapists, and not ONE  supporting the brave attempts and sacrfice  of the troops is not love of troops in my view. Another  'documentary' is coming out Abu Ghraib this  week. Yet, we have seen ZERO  about Al Qeada, the forces blowing up and killing our troops and Muslims  alike in Iraq, Afghanistan and around the world. I'm glad you love  your country, so do I, I find making constant attacks  on the mission and focusing on incidents  that are wrong, committed by some troops, as destructive and prolonging the war and given 'comfort' to the enemy. I dislike  what Clinton did  in  Bosnia, but, when the troops  were commited, I wasn't rushing into the street accusing them of genocide and the leaders of being evil monsters. If anything I see the hysteria coming from the so-called  'anti-war' side and their only dislike  focused  on the President and their fellow  Americans who voted for him.

Now, please  provide  me a link to the 'Pro-War'  movie, or even one that  shows  the terrorists, who happen to be Islamic. They are hard to find.

Offline casicua

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Re: Body Of War
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2008, 01:49:27 PM »
Nobody on this board called you a war monger for supporting the Bush administration. If that is your only validation for calling the left troop haters or terrorists supporters, then I have a 4 year old nephew that you can get into a "he started it" match with. 

Anyone who thinks that government officials are going to war because they derive some pleasure from bloodshed is an idiot. The same goes vice-versa. Anyone who thinks that "the lefties" want troops to die, or support terrorism has no business claiming to be talking about real politics, and should stick to Bill O'Reilly and Oberman type sensationalist shock-jock rantings.

And I'm pretty sure that almost every fiction film portrays soldiers as American heroes, from Blackhawk Down to Saving Private Ryan. Fiction portraying Muslims as terrorists include the  extremely popular show such as 24, or the film "the Siege".

Documentaries portraying American troops positively as heroes include:
http://www.aboutbaghdad.com/
http://www.iamanamericansoldier.com/

Documentaries are supposed to be journalistic. Soldiers are NOT over there gung-ho, happy to be at war. They don't want to be there, they are there fulfilling their sworn duty to protect this country- which means they do as their government asks of them. Morale is not created by lies and propaganda about why we are there. The reason there are not so many "Pro-War" movies is because war is not a glorious or great thing. It is a necessity when all else fails.

Offline FZ

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Re: Body Of War
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2008, 01:03:20 AM »
Nobody on this board called you a war monger for supporting the Bush administration. If that is your only validation for calling the left troop haters or terrorists supporters, then I have a 4 year old nephew that you can get into a "he started it" match with. 

Anyone who thinks that government officials are going to war because they derive some pleasure from bloodshed is an idiot. The same goes vice-versa. Anyone who thinks that "the lefties" want troops to die, or support terrorism has no business claiming to be talking about real politics, and should stick to Bill O'Reilly and Oberman type sensationalist shock-jock rantings.

And I'm pretty sure that almost every fiction film portrays soldiers as American heroes, from Blackhawk Down to Saving Private Ryan. Fiction portraying Muslims as terrorists include the  extremely popular show such as 24, or the film "the Siege".

Documentaries portraying American troops positively as heroes include:
http://www.aboutbaghdad.com/
http://www.iamanamericansoldier.com/

Documentaries are supposed to be journalistic. Soldiers are NOT over there gung-ho, happy to be at war. They don't want to be there, they are there fulfilling their sworn duty to protect this country- which means they do as their government asks of them. Morale is not created by lies and propaganda about why we are there. The reason there are not so many "Pro-War" movies is because war is not a glorious or great thing. It is a necessity when all else fails.

I never  said  anyone on this board did anything to me. We definately have a failure to communicate. When I talk about the extreme left that has done everything possible  to make the soldiers and armed  forces, including  the 24 year-old nephew look bad, as someone who is here, I'm gonna speak up and defend their mission. Contrary to what  you may believe, they are out ther eand in large numbers and making 'schlockumentaries'  and movies, that jepordize  the lives of the armed  forces.  Yes, most soldiers  are 'gung-ho', but, that doesn't mean they love war, they're not  insane. Thanks for the links, as for Saving Private Ryan, yes, WW 2 movies  almost always  show  the allied side  as being positive. I was talking about this war, not somalia, or a hundred  other battles.

Propaganda is  not a  dirty word, and can be used  in a myriad  of ways. The vast majority  of the movies made since  9/11 have been negative, and downright lies and propaganda  serving the enemy. Whether  that is the intent, is irrelevant.  The only movie I recall  showing the even 9/11, brave civilians in a positive  light is United 93.   

Offline TRX

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Re: Body Of War
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2009, 04:13:56 PM »

Quite the article on the most grave of decisions.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/06/world/asia/06reconstruct.html

Quote
The decision represents a complicated evolution in Mr. Obama’s thinking. He began the process clearly skeptical of Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal’s request for 40,000 more troops, but the more he learned about the consequences of failure, and the more he narrowed the mission, the more he gravitated toward a robust if temporary buildup, guided in particular by Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates.


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www.antiwar.com/

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